Alain Whyte: Southpaw Grammar listening party via Twitter - 8pm UK time May 10, 2020

Yes - I'm sure he didn't. Because allusion is a literary technique. It's a deliberate echo of a line. And it's why he doesn't hide his inspirations.

Still no stealing or borrowing?

10. “Pretty Girls Make Graves” - also the name of a defunct band from Seattle, Morrissey lifted the title for this song (from The Smiths’ debut) from a line in the novel The Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac. “Oh really?”

9. “Bigmouth Strikes Again” - the novel First Among Equals, by Jeffery Archer, contains the line, “I was only joking when I said you should be bludgeoned in your bed.” It probably goes without saying that this line was lifted directly and used in “Bigmouth Strikes Again,” one of the most praised songs The Smiths ever recorded.

8. “Satan Rejected My Soul” - released as a single in December 1997, “Satan Rejected My Soul” rips from a literary heavyweight in the fifth line of the song - “He knows heaven doesnt seem to be my home” - taken from Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë. The original line reads: “I was only going to say that heaven did not seem to be my home; and I broke my heart with weeping to come back to earth; and the angels were so angry that they flung me out into the middle of the heath on the top of Wuthering Heights; where I woke sobbing for joy.”

7. “Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others” - one of the great album closers of the ’80s, “Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others” fades hypnotically in and out of existence while hitting upon a duo of lyrical sources. First, Morrissey references the film Carry on Cleo with the line “As Anthony said to Cleopatra as he opened a crate of ale,” and then there’s the direct lift of the song title “Send Me The Pillow You Dream On” made popular by Dean Martin as the song nears an end - “Send me the pillow, the one that you dream on… and I’ll send you mine.”

6. “Found Found Found” - an underrated track from the criminally ignored Kill Uncle, “Found Found Found” was rumored to be about Morrissey’s budding friendship with R.E.M. lead vocalist Michael Stipe (Stipe first got Morrissey’s attention through a series of fan letters). The inspiration for the lyrics was never confirmed, but one thing’s for certain: the line “I do believe that the more you give your love, and I do believe that the more you offer trust, the more you’re bound to lose” is directly taken from the Noël Coward song “If Love Were All”

5. “Well I Wonder” - one of the great songs by The Smiths from their second album Meat is Murder, “Well I Wonder” features slightly modified takes on many lines from Elizabeth Smart’s By Grand Central Station I Sat Down And Wept, a favorite source of Morrissey’s. Examples taken from Smart’s book: “for it is the fierce last stand of all I have,” “cries out hoarsely my name in the night,” and “…do you hear me where you sleep?”

4. “Reel Around The Fountain” - as stated by Morrissey in the above interview, many lyrics from this song off of the debut album from The Smiths were lifted from the play A Taste of Honey by Shelagh Delaney. Most directly, the lines “You’re the bee’s knees, but so am I” and “I dreamt about you last night, and I fell out of bed twice” which can be heard at the 3:57 mark in the clip of the film version of A Taste of Honey linked to HERE.

3. “Cemetry Gates” - this previously referenced song highlights a literary grudge match with Morrissey feeling sure to win because “Keats and Yeats are on your side while Wilde is on mine.” He goes on to deride plagiarism (as evidenced above) before borrowing nearly an entire verse of the song from the film The Man Who Came to Dinner. The borrowed lyrics: “All those people, all those lives, where are they now? Here was a woman who once lived and loved, full of the same passions, fears, jealousies, hates… and what remains of it now? I want to cry.”

2. “This Charming Man” - the second single released by The Smiths features a line directly taken from the 1972 film Sleuth starring Laurence Olivier and Michael Caine. The line: “A jumped-up pantry boy who doesn’t know his place.” Go ahead and A/B the film and the song… cue THIS to 0:43 and compare it to THIS at 1:07. Now, aren’t you starting to feel like you “know so much about these things”?

1. “This Night Has Opened My Eyes” - as admitted to by Morrissey himself, the lyrics for the transcendent “This Night Has Opened My Eyes” portray a musical version of A Taste Of Honey by Shelagh Delaney. Lines from the play that are referenced in the song include: “You can’t just wrap it up in a bundle of newspaper,” “…and dump it on a doorstep,” “that river, it’s the colour of lead,” “I’m not sorry and I’m not glad,” and “oh well, the dream’s gone, but the baby’s real enough.”
 

Nerak

Reverse Ferret
Still no stealing or borrowing?

10. “Pretty Girls Make Graves” - also the name of a defunct band from Seattle, Morrissey lifted the title for this song (from The Smiths’ debut) from a line in the novel The Dharma Bums by Jack Kerouac. “Oh really?”

9. “Bigmouth Strikes Again” - the novel First Among Equals, by Jeffery Archer, contains the line, “I was only joking when I said you should be bludgeoned in your bed.” It probably goes without saying that this line was lifted directly and used in “Bigmouth Strikes Again,” one of the most praised songs The Smiths ever recorded.

8. “Satan Rejected My Soul” - released as a single in December 1997, “Satan Rejected My Soul” rips from a literary heavyweight in the fifth line of the song - “He knows heaven doesnt seem to be my home” - taken from Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë. The original line reads: “I was only going to say that heaven did not seem to be my home; and I broke my heart with weeping to come back to earth; and the angels were so angry that they flung me out into the middle of the heath on the top of Wuthering Heights; where I woke sobbing for joy.”

7. “Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others” - one of the great album closers of the ’80s, “Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others” fades hypnotically in and out of existence while hitting upon a duo of lyrical sources. First, Morrissey references the film Carry on Cleo with the line “As Anthony said to Cleopatra as he opened a crate of ale,” and then there’s the direct lift of the song title “Send Me The Pillow You Dream On” made popular by Dean Martin as the song nears an end - “Send me the pillow, the one that you dream on… and I’ll send you mine.”

6. “Found Found Found” - an underrated track from the criminally ignored Kill Uncle, “Found Found Found” was rumored to be about Morrissey’s budding friendship with R.E.M. lead vocalist Michael Stipe (Stipe first got Morrissey’s attention through a series of fan letters). The inspiration for the lyrics was never confirmed, but one thing’s for certain: the line “I do believe that the more you give your love, and I do believe that the more you offer trust, the more you’re bound to lose” is directly taken from the Noël Coward song “If Love Were All”

5. “Well I Wonder” - one of the great songs by The Smiths from their second album Meat is Murder, “Well I Wonder” features slightly modified takes on many lines from Elizabeth Smart’s By Grand Central Station I Sat Down And Wept, a favorite source of Morrissey’s. Examples taken from Smart’s book: “for it is the fierce last stand of all I have,” “cries out hoarsely my name in the night,” and “…do you hear me where you sleep?”

4. “Reel Around The Fountain” - as stated by Morrissey in the above interview, many lyrics from this song off of the debut album from The Smiths were lifted from the play A Taste of Honey by Shelagh Delaney. Most directly, the lines “You’re the bee’s knees, but so am I” and “I dreamt about you last night, and I fell out of bed twice” which can be heard at the 3:57 mark in the clip of the film version of A Taste of Honey linked to HERE.

3. “Cemetry Gates” - this previously referenced song highlights a literary grudge match with Morrissey feeling sure to win because “Keats and Yeats are on your side while Wilde is on mine.” He goes on to deride plagiarism (as evidenced above) before borrowing nearly an entire verse of the song from the film The Man Who Came to Dinner. The borrowed lyrics: “All those people, all those lives, where are they now? Here was a woman who once lived and loved, full of the same passions, fears, jealousies, hates… and what remains of it now? I want to cry.”

2. “This Charming Man” - the second single released by The Smiths features a line directly taken from the 1972 film Sleuth starring Laurence Olivier and Michael Caine. The line: “A jumped-up pantry boy who doesn’t know his place.” Go ahead and A/B the film and the song… cue THIS to 0:43 and compare it to THIS at 1:07. Now, aren’t you starting to feel like you “know so much about these things”?

1. “This Night Has Opened My Eyes” - as admitted to by Morrissey himself, the lyrics for the transcendent “This Night Has Opened My Eyes” portray a musical version of A Taste Of Honey by Shelagh Delaney. Lines from the play that are referenced in the song include: “You can’t just wrap it up in a bundle of newspaper,” “…and dump it on a doorstep,” “that river, it’s the colour of lead,” “I’m not sorry and I’m not glad,” and “oh well, the dream’s gone, but the baby’s real enough.”

That's what allusion is. It's taking found text & incorporating them into a new form. Lindor does it with images. It's a surrealist, pop art, postmodern thing. (Although it was normal before the mid-20th century to quote from the bible & the classics.)

I worked with a playwright who builds his scripts around pop songs.
 
That's what allusion is. It's taking found text & incorporating them into a new form. Lindor does it with images. It's a surrealist, pop art, postmodern thing. (Although it was normal before the mid-20th century to quote from the bible & the classics.)

I worked with a playwright who builds his scripts around pop songs.

No it's stealing and borrowing (theft), but let's agree to disagree.
 

Verso

Well-Known Member
Once again, Nerak authoritatively talking out of her ass. An allusion references something without mentioning it specifically. Morrissey actually did not employ much allusion in his early writing; he was lifting lines wholesale from books and songs he admired. I don't find anything wrong with this, as we all know by now that "talent borrows, genius steals." But there's no need to bend the truth or defend Morrissey against an artistic practice that he blatantly employed for much of his early career.
 

Verso

Well-Known Member
Southpaw is an interesting album and far from Morrissey's worst. When you listen to the acoustic Miraval recordings, it's easy to hear that the record was clearly written as a sequel to Vauxhall, but Morrissey's about-face and subsequent decision to turn them all into "rockers" robs the compositions of some of their tenderness and subtlety. You can hear a lot of Morrissey's unhappiness on this record, he seems reserved and terse and this record would obviously mark the beginning of a decline that wouldn't turn upwards again until the mid-2000s. That said, "Southpaw" and "Reader Meet Author" are two of my favorite songs of his and, of course, all of the b-sides are wonderful and outshine most of the album tracks.

In any case, Alain should keep doing these. He's the only one willing to offer even a morsel of insight or behind-the-scenes storytelling about these sessions. I don't think Boz is unintelligent, but he clearly cares about his job security and has learned that being monosyllabic is the safest way to conduct himself. His interviews and recollections have always been as interesting as watching paint dry.
 

Flibberty

Well-Known Member
6. “Found Found Found” - an underrated track from the criminally ignored Kill Uncle, “Found Found Found” was rumored to be about Morrissey’s budding friendship with R.E.M. lead vocalist Michael Stipe (Stipe first got Morrissey’s attention through a series of fan letters). The inspiration for the lyrics was never confirmed, but one thing’s for certain: the line “I do believe that the more you give your love, and I do believe that the more you offer trust, the more you’re bound to lose” is directly taken from the Noël Coward song “If Love Were All”

And this is proof that Morrissey borrowing a lyric didn't guarantee a decent song.

Not that this is definitive or anything, but on another board there was a recent poll and Found Found Found came in at #256 from the 264 songs.

Kill Uncle unsurprisingly came rock bottom of the albums.
 
E

EmitFlesti

Guest
Holy crap! How am I just now finding out about these Miraval Sessions and other rare outtakes and stuff on YouTube? There goes my next few days!

i never understood the hatred for Kill Uncle. I always thought it underrated, but too short (the remastered and expanded version is better, especially the full band “There is a Place in Hell...”, but I don’t understand why Tony the Pony was left off the remaster version).
 

dneuer

Member
Did Alain do a similar "listening party" for Vauxhall and I?

No, he did one for Your Arsenal. Maladjusted is lined up next. Pretty sure he's been asked, but I don't know if he's agreed (or if he's available). If enough want him to do it, I'm sure he could be persuaded (again, if he's available).
 
He admits his sources, makes a joke of it. And changes the material. That's a technique.

But I guess...

I admit my source, I make a joke of it. I've changed Nerak's material. This is my technique.

But I guess that everyone should now hero worship this original content of mine.
 

Nerak

Reverse Ferret
I admit my source, I make a joke of it. I've changed Nerak's material. This is my technique.

But I guess that everyone should now hero worship this original content of mine.

But you haven't taken my source material & turned it into a song or a play or used it in a different way - you've simply made another post.

That's why he is a genius.

Taking random bits of pop culture & distilling them into a new thing that works on its own terms isn't easy.
 
But you haven't taken my source material & turned it into a song or a play or used it in a different way - you've simply made another post.

That's why he is a genius.

Taking random bits of pop culture & distilling them into a new thing that works on its own terms isn't easy.

Yes it is, which is how Stock Aitken and Waterman were able to dominate the charts in the late 80s by using Classical pieces for melodies of indentikit bubble gum pop songs.

Would you regard them are musical geniuses also?

My post is original content and in reworking your post, is the art of a genius. Posts are literally art. Worship my brilliance. Buy a t-shirt.
 

Nerak

Reverse Ferret
Yes it is, which is how Stock Aitken and Waterman were able to dominate the charts in the late 80s by using Classical pieces for melodies of indentikit bubble gum pop songs.

Would you regard them are musical geniuses also?

My post is original content and in reworking your post, is the art of a genius. Posts are literally art. Worship my brilliance. Buy a t-shirt.

you think Morrissey was using identikit bubble gum lyrics?
 

Peppermint

Well-Known Member
Holy crap! How am I just now finding out about these Miraval Sessions and other rare outtakes and stuff on YouTube? There goes my next few days!

i never understood the hatred for Kill Uncle. I always thought it underrated, but too short (the remastered and expanded version is better, especially the full band “There is a Place in Hell...”, but I don’t understand why Tony the Pony was left off the remaster version).
Perhaps this will enlighten you :lbf:

 

Nerak

Reverse Ferret
And this is proof that Morrissey borrowing a lyric didn't guarantee a decent song.

Not that this is definitive or anything, but on another board there was a recent poll and Found Found Found came in at #256 from the 264 songs.

Kill Uncle unsurprisingly came rock bottom of the albums.

It's doing something different though. In Found he's agreeing with Noel's creed, but he still thinks he's found a man who won't leave. Noel's song is about accepting not finding a man who won't leave.
 

Famous when dead

Vulgarian
Moderator
Holy crap! How am I just now finding out about these Miraval Sessions and other rare outtakes and stuff on YouTube? There goes my next few days!

i never understood the hatred for Kill Uncle. I always thought it underrated, but too short (the remastered and expanded version is better, especially the full band “There is a Place in Hell...”, but I don’t understand why Tony the Pony was left off the remaster version).
You may wish to see the NHS collection here - which encompasses all of it.
Regards,
FWD.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
i never understood the hatred for Kill Uncle. I always thought it underrated, but too short (the remastered and expanded version is better, especially the full band “There is a Place in Hell...”, but I don’t understand why Tony the Pony was left off the remaster version).

"Tony the Pony" was only tagged on to the 1991 US/Canada editions.
But “There is a Place in Hell...” reserved for the one who substituted the KROQ racket for the exquisite original.
 

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