Beethoven Was Deaf: those were the days

Thanks - I actually just did go to ''passions'' website as I want to go to bed with a clear mind:lbf: (but thanks anyway:thumb:)

Can't listen to the album as I don't have any live Morrissey albums.
I only have three live albums in my whole collection (one is 'Rank' and only been played three times)
The other two are Siouxsie & The Banshees 'Nocturn' (I was there for the first night at Royal Albert Hall in 1983) and a Toyah album:guitar:
Live albums and live B-sides just don't float my boat.

Jukebox Jury

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here JJ and say that I GUARANTEE that BWD would absolutely thrill you. I'm also not a huhge fan of live albums in general, but there are a few exceptions and BWD is one of those. The sheer unrelenting energy that hammers through the setlist is incredible. The production is excellent, giving a great live feel and not smoothing two many edges, but still with great instrument separation so you can hear everything. There's plenty of authentic (sounding) crowd noise, singing etc to drft you off into a virtual crowd. Seriously, give it a listen - preferably through decent speakers or headphones. I am 99.87% certain you'll be blown away. It was the first place I ever heard National Front Disco - WOW!

Ben
 
Bowie,David Bryne,Eno,John Cale,Elvis Costello,Mark E Smith among others have all managed it.

Morrissey is stuck in the groove.

I always remember a review about the time of ROTT where the reviewer said something along the lines of:

if only Morrissey had put his genius into recording and his talent into his persona as opposed to the other way around then.....
 
The old fogies have taken over the asylum.:lbf::lbf:
 
Do you also think that in those pre-internet days not really having a diddly squit what was going to come next may have played some part in proceedings? And maybe seeing those Vauxhall songs live? And it was your first Moz gig? Lucky you!!!

That AV gig was f***ing spectacular

I've posted before (might have been on the main M-solo site, not the forum) about the 'net 'killing' the excitement of tours. I can't stop myself looking as soon as M and others start a tour to see the setlist...because I CAN. I remember those most precious of moments in the queue...'What're they gonna open with?'...'What do you think the encore will be?'...Now we KNOW the setlist, the order, the encore. :(

Sorry you were sick that night. AV was spectacular. Just remembering it now. Particularly NFD, a track I was hoping for (but didn't know was coming!) and loving Boxers and an incredible Speedway to close. As soon as Speedway finished this enormous bloke next to me just put both hands up to M and screamed 'Thank You!'. Then back on for Shoplifters in a vintage Villa shirt (same for each town every night, I believe) what a f***ing tour that was! Got the Introducing Morrissey video on VHS, made up of two shows from that tour. Ahhhhhh....

Ben
 
I think that in those days his touring was relatively sporadic and rare (and maybe thats an age thing) that the whole seeing Morrissey live was a spectacle.

Now I think he's turned into a bit of a vaudeville entertainer often feeling the need to say something onstage? (which he never really used to do back in the early 90s, you actually believed he was genuinely shy)

But in an ideal world that 90s band would still be his live band, you felt there was camaraderie there and a spirit where now, to me, its Morrissey and a backing band.
He should include Smiths songs but arguably not to the extent he does

I agree with you (Except I'm happy he talks in between songs now - it makes the show more intimate). But, I would love to see that 90's band back and the spirit you speak of. I just see it as Morrissey and Boz now - which isn't a bad thing, of course! ;)
 
Thanks for some lovely chat this evening folks

Must go to bed - up early

Toodle pip - might just listen to a wee bit of Moz before nodding off

Ben
x
 
I've posted before (might have been on the main M-solo site, not the forum) about the 'net 'killing' the excitement of tours. I can't stop myself looking as soon as M and others start a tour to see the setlist...because I CAN. I remember those most precious of moments in the queue...'What're they gonna open with?'...'What do you think the encore will be?'...Now we KNOW the setlist, the order, the encore. :(

Sorry you were sick that night. AV was spectacular. Just remembering it now. Particularly NFD, a track I was hoping for (but didn't know was coming!) and loving Boxers and an incredible Speedway to close. As soon as Speedway finished this enormous bloke next to me just put both hands up to M and screamed 'Thank You!'. Then back on for Shoplifters in a vintage Villa shirt (same for each town every night, I believe) what a f***ing tour that was! Got the Introducing Morrissey video on VHS, made up of two shows from that tour. Ahhhhhh....

Ben

By the time the tour rolled down towards Cardiff and Bristol there were no vintage football shirts which probably says more about our respective cities football heritage!! (he was quite ill though) Managed to get up onstage at Cardiff only to be ushered away before the handshake (millimetres in it, like that imaginary carp I didn't catch...)

Think I may put that on now. Introducing Morrissey. Yet to play it on my plush new TV.

Great days.
 
Re: Beethoven Was Deaf...those were the days...

JC that's amazing! I'm 40 and got into The Smiths AFTER they split, but then Morrissey's solo stuff very shortly after that. I think it's utterly fascinating that you and I are the same age, love The Smiths and yet have quite different likes and loves with M's cannon. I'm particulalry taken by you placing V&I so low (though not in anyway suggesting you are 'wrong') as my experience is that of all the albums, the one that perenially tops the lists of M albums for 'people of our age' is V&I. Certainly in the Music Press of our 3rd and 4th decades, V&I is almost universally seen as his masterpiece. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, but I do see it as probably his best single long-player, though I am a terrible sucker for Southpaw G! *blushes, though not sure why*

Well, I do love Southpaw and Arsenal. They'd probably be #4 and #5. So I do like his rockabilly and other albums from that period. I believe I'm in the minority for finding the last two and Southpaw among his top 5. I myself just prefer some fast rockers to be mixed in, not all slow ballads. And I think the lyrics on the last three albums are really clever, personal and funny, though not everyone thinks so.
 
I've posted before (might have been on the main M-solo site, not the forum) about the 'net 'killing' the excitement of tours. I can't stop myself looking as soon as M and others start a tour to see the setlist...because I CAN. I remember those most precious of moments in the queue...'What're they gonna open with?'...'What do you think the encore will be?'...Now we KNOW the setlist, the order, the encore. :(

Always try and catch one of the first gigs in a tour is my recommendation. I wonder how many people have the self-control to not have a slight peek at what the band/ singer will probably do that night... I know that I f***ing can't!!!
 
Whilst I certainly love when Moz gets a bit rockabilly (I think The Loop should forever be a staple in the setlist, absolutely brilliant), a whole show of it suffers a bit, he's not a rockabilly artist. I think Stephen Street said after he saw Moz in that era and remembers them playing sudehead, he said something like "That's not what it's supposed to sound like...".
It's definitely great to mix it up and experiment, case in point the Banjo on Sunday back in 2002 .. it's not MEANT to sound like that, but it's different and worked for awhile.
The songs written in the era of BWD definitely work with a rockabilly style because they were written with that in mind.
But honestly, I much prefer the latest version of The Loop to the one on BWD .. it sounds a little thin .. the current version has this nice full sound to it, much meatier and yet still rockabilly. I am more than happy with the current set of musicians he is with .. Matt Walker pounds the hell out of those drums with a lot of passion, Jesse might not be the sentimental favorite over Alain, but his guitar playing is good enough (maybe keep Alain for the song writing though). Solomon is a dab hand at the bass, Boz is Boz and maybe just get Mikey back ... would much prefer that over "the lads" (who wern't bad or anything). The problem now comes with the lack of change in the setlist and some of the sloppy writing for albums (lyrics and music). But as a live band, they sound just as fantastic, if not more so now than ever. so to me, BWD is great for a period piece, but I'd not want Moz to always have a sound like that.
 
Re: Beethoven Was Deaf...those were the days...

Thanks for replying JC.

Maybe we're just too differenct in age, you and I. Maybe it's all down to when you were a certain age in Morrissey History. I have no problem with the last three albums. Bits of them are pretty good and I continue to admire him for writing proper, new records, sticking to the principles of musical integrity that he's always championed and labasted a lack of in so many 'musicians' of the last 30 years or more.

But for me, to suggest that the last three were his best work I find 'astonishing', and I mean that with NO element of unkindness or pompousness. It's just that for me, lyrically he isn't a patch on where he was around V&I, BD, KU and Your Arsenal. Musically I think that the quality has reached a plateau of perfectly servicable, occasionally brilliant quality - examples of the latter being '...Paris' which has a real BD air about it and '...Far Off Places' which is rocky and dirty and great. But there are no more Trouble Loves Me's, no more Why Don't You Find Out...s, no more Certain People's. Many might say that was then, don't keep barking on about the past. And they're right. And again I say (arogantly) that unless you saw him at the height of powers that was Spencer, Alain and Boz rocking your bloody head off, then I'm afraid you've never, and will never, see him at his very, very best...

Ben
x

I think your comment about age may have something to it, although I have no idea if it applies in JCs case. I was around when it began in 1983, and for my part, I find it equally astounding that anyone can regard the early part of his solo career as being "at his very, very best". To me, his "very very best" was without any comparison whatsoever the Smiths - and more specifically, the early Smiths (though granted, TQID comes close). Possibly because to me, Hatful of Hollow is the template that everything else is judged against, as his early solo stuff seems to be the template for you. Anyway, from that vantage point I don't experience his early solo work as superior to his last records. Except for ROTT. There's been something of a turn towards croonerism and also from rawness to polishedness (even in his noisiest songs), but I think that rather suits him actually. It didn't suit the Smiths (I find Strangeways deplorably overpolished, airy and short of dynamics), but it does suit Morrissey as a solo artist.

cheers
 
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This is the album review that appeared in the art journal 'Frieze'. I think it pretty much nails it.
Bracewell on Beethoven
I agree it's a much underrated record. I rarely listen to live albums, like most folks, but I regard 'Beethoven' as, basically, 'Your Arsenal' on steroids. I listen to 'Beethoven' more often than 'Arsenal'. Until 'Arsenal' gets the remastering it needs and deserves, 'Beethoven' just sounds better. On my iPod at least, 'Your Arsenal' just sounds too thin and weedy. It should be Loud. Plus the version of 'Suedehead' is aces. I'm pretty sure Mr.Street saw a live version on the 'Kill Uncle' jaunt. By the time the 'Arsenal' tour was at it's peak 'Suedehead' was amazing. Perhaps it wasn't meant to sound like that, but perhaps it sounded better.
I also think the album is a slightly inaccurate record of the Moz band at that time. The album is clearly (or rather, 'Clearmountain-ly') a very produced live LP. I have no problem with this. But it is a wee bit risky to listen to this and, with the rose tinted hearing aid, think back to them good old rotten days of Yore Arsenal, etc. ;)
In my opinion the live set-up since Quarry has been excellent, give or take. Probably reaching it's peak at the high point of the 'Ringleader' tour (say, final Sunday Night at the London Palladium). I don't especially hold with the romanticisation of 'th'Lads'-era. I recall some pretty wobbly shows on the 'Uncle' and 'Arsenal' tours. A few nights where the rampant adulation got us through.
 
Re: Beethoven Was Deaf...those were the days...

Thanks for all the replies, guys - it was lovely to spark a little discussion after I was so 'taken' by Mosrrissey love over the weekend! For the record, I also listened to the whole of YATQ at the same time, so certainly would not be dismissive of later records.

JC that's amazing! I'm 40 and got into The Smiths AFTER they split, but then Morrissey's solo stuff very shortly after that. I think it's utterly fascinating that you and I are the same age, love The Smiths and yet have quite different likes and loves with M's cannon. I'm particulalry taken by you placing V&I so low (though not in anyway suggesting you are 'wrong') as my experience is that of all the albums, the one that perenially tops the lists of M albums for 'people of our age' is V&I. Certainly in the Music Press of our 3rd and 4th decades, V&I is almost universally seen as his masterpiece. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, but I do see it as probably his best single long-player, though I am a terrible sucker for Southpaw G! *blushes, though not sure why*

Ben

I agree with all JC said. I'm 38 and got into The Smiths while they were still together as well. (I'm JC's wife. A shared love of Morrissey was one of the reasons we sparked with each other.)

V&I has always bored me a little bit. I mean, it's nice... It just lacks that little bit of magic that I love in Morrissey's music.

ROTT was IT for me. It's still my favorite Morrissey album. I know it's wrong of me, but I tend to look at those who dislike it through slitty judgmental eyes. I feel like they are willfully misunderstanding those songs. Quarry and YOR tie for 2nd place.

His older songs were fantastic, but his voice wasn't strong enough. Something happened after The Smiths. His voice became mild. For years! It's back up to Smiths-level powerful again and I'm loving it.

With my other favorite bands (who shall remain nameless), I tend to agree with you. Most artists don't keep progressing in a way that makes me happy. Sometimes they go off in a direction that doesn't speak to me at all. Sometimes they decide on a formula and keep cranking out the same song over and over. Morrissey is the only recording artist who has been around for a long time whose art has grown and changed in a way that pleases me. It baffles me when I come to Solo and see all the pining for the old days, the skinny abdomen, the hairless arm pits, the celibate pride. I like him now. I feel like he and I grew up together.
 
His older songs were fantastic, but his voice wasn't strong enough. Something happened after The Smiths. His voice became mild. For years! It's back up to Smiths-level powerful again and I'm loving it.

I've often thought though that there's an abyss between his Smiths-era voice and the way he is singing now. Not that it necessarily contradicts your point about strength. But back then his singing was frankly frequently rather inept, technically speaking. He got by more on a sort of extraordinary don't-give-a-damn expressivity, to put it like that. He knew how to make a voice count. Today, he sounds technically masterful, almost polished. I think that allows him to be a powerful singer, but in a very different way. The kind of vocals he delivers on, say, The world is full of crashing bores, is pretty hard to imagine him doing in 1984. Perhaps he was somewhere in transit between the two during the early years of his solo career. Vauxhall seems to me to be the album where he found his present vocal form, though it has gotten even more pronounced with time.

cheers
 
Re: Beethoven Was Deaf...those were the days...

I think your comment about age may have something to it, although I have no idea if it applies in JCs case. I was around when it began in 1983, and for my part, I find it equally astounding that anyone can regard the early part of his solo career as being "at his very, very best". To me, his "very very best" was without any comparison whatsoever the Smiths - and more specifically, the early Smiths (though granted, TQID comes close). Possibly because to me, Hatful of Hollow is the template that everything else is judged against, as his early solo stuff seems to be the template for you. Anyway, from that vantage point I don't experience his early solo work as superior to his last records. Except for ROTT. There's been something of a turn towards croonerism and also from rawness to polishedness (even in his noisiest songs), but I think that rather suits him actually. It didn't suit the Smiths (I find Strangeways deplorably overpolished, airy and short of dynamics), but it does suit Morrissey as a solo artist.

cheers

I think you've possibly just identified (or at least illustrated) the most important determining factor in these tyoes of discussion about Moz - namely that people's preferences are largely (but not exclusively) influenced by their inherent favouring of the songwriting. For me, therefore, the 'very best' comes at the peak of powers of Alain and Boz (YA, V&I, SG) and whilst I love the Smiths, I have to acknowledge that I prefer the songwriting of B&A during that period to that of Mr Marr (assuming Moz is the constant in these changing eras). Those who like Quarry onwards best must, I guess 'prefer' the writing of his later collaborators. What do you think?

Ben
 
Ah, into the murky depths that is the whats and hows of preference. :)

I really don't know. I've observed, for my own part, a general tendency for the first record I really get into by a given artist to assume the subsequent function of a template. That is, it tends to more or less consciously define my expectations or what I'm looking for in subsequent offerings. That again tends to block appreciation of new elements in later work, who get overshadowed by the relative absence of the things you loved in the first record and keep listening out for. It took me many years to develop any great affection for Morrissey's solo work for this reason - it was always disappointing because I was listeninig for the Smiths and rarely found it, and even when I did it was a pale copy. Vauxhall broke that because it made me realise what I had been doing and how pointless it was, and that I needed to approach the music from a different angle. But there is still no way anything different he might do today will equal the early Smiths to me, as nothing else ever will either.

Now, that's not invariably the case. For instance, it took me half a year to get into Pulp's This is Hardcore, because it just didn't make sense to me against the background of Different Class. In the end though, I found it superior to its predecessor.

I suspect all of this however is very individual. To some people, personal history will mean a lot - the circumstances under which an album was listened to, the way it connected with their lives at that time. Style seems to matter to many people - some plainly don't much like ballads, others plainly don't much like the noisy songs. There's enough breadth of style in Morrissey's production to make that a possible dividing point - you could well sort his production broadly into "rock songs", "pop songs" and "crooner numbers", with not too many songs that resist such classification. Personally I find this matters little (to me there's a shorter distance between "You're gonna need someone on your side" and "Interlude" than between the former and any non-Morrissey glam number, or the latter and any non-Morrissey french chanson), but people will differ in this. It comes down to what you're looking for, and what you are generally disposed to like. Which, judging from the range of opinion about almost any album or song, is obviously very different things from person to person.

What would be interesting is to select a few songs from the ongoing poll with the lowest possible number of people giving, say, a lower rating than seven. And some songs with the lowest possible number of people giving a high rating. And see if each group have any obvious commonalities. Perhaps that would indicate something about whatever common minimum denominators exist between fans when it comes to liking or disliking songs.

To answer your direct question, the interpretation that preference is guided by the songwriters doesn't hold good for me at least. My rating would be Vauxhall, Quarry, Viva Hate, Arsenal, Refusal, Bona Drag, Maladjusted, Southpaw, ROTT, Uncle. A pretty even spread between periods, songwriters and styles, if my knowledge in that regard holds good? Plus, at least from Vauxhall to Southpaw, the difference in affection isn't really that great - much less than for most other acts I like.

cheers
 
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He started something didn't he?

1) I know that The Smiths and Morrissey are one and the same in some people's eyes but to me they are two separate entities in terms how I regard their music. Never having seen The Smiths they, to me, are probably akin to how McCartney/Lennon fans who weren't there regard The Beatles

2) I think his live band now are better musicians than th'Lads but (and maybe this is nostalgia as well) there was the mirage of a gang impression, and I could reagrd them as a group. Another reason for this I have realised may be because they were all English and I obviously suffer from rampant xenophobia when it comes to anything American:D But not as badly as some people moaning about Cadburys being taken over by Kraft!
No seriously I do think that you can identify easier with "some of our own." Unfortunately.

3) Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just mine is right!:lbf: Equally opinions are like arseholes/assholes. Everybody has one!
 
Re: Beethoven Was Deaf...those were the days...

For me, therefore, the 'very best' comes at the peak of powers of Alain and Boz (YA, V&I, SG). Those who like Quarry onwards best must, I guess 'prefer' the writing of his later collaborators. What do you think?

I'm not sure that's it, because Alain (and Boz) were the major songwriters throughout all of these periods. Refusal is 75% Alain and Boz, Swords even more so.

The rhythm section has changed, it's true. But then we all know the rhythm section is only 10% of the contribution, not 25%, right? ;)
 
I recall listening to Beethoven Was Deaf on its its release and thought it was fantastic ( still do ) especially We Hate It as the closing number,thought it was a real stormer to finish on,this was right up until the point I discovered that it was actually the song that opened the show that night!:lbf:
 
Morrissey does do a lot of his songs on a slower tempo,which sometimes actually slaughters his songs, especially "Smiths" songs. "Sister I'm A Poet" is a fast upbeat song but the last time he played the song, it was slower than walking pace.
One question I want to know: Does Mike Joyce get royalities from Morrissey singing Smiths songs? Because I know he used to have certain royalities on Smiths albums.
 
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