If The Smiths had continued to this day.....
- Thread starter Lost
- Start date
slum mum 1974
New Member
Why's that then?
coz i tend to disagree
I think Morrissy has done a damn fine job and he will continue to do so. Don't get me wrong, I adore The Smiths. But if you ask me Morrissey and The Smiths have a lot in common
Strangeways hinted at what could have come. I think The Smiths were very different to the majority of bands - I've often thought that musicians and lyricists get together because they have something to say and play, and then if there's a spark, the relationship generates creativity. It can't be said of many bands that they were still reaching the creative zenith on the 4th studio album. Anyway, who knows? Its conjecture. I would like to think that they had at least one more stunning album in them. Of the Moz Solo albums I think only Vauxhall and Quarry sit equally with The Smiths' material.
Peter
Peter
Lost
New Member
I'm one of those that believe Morrissey WAS The Smiths. I think Marr was a fine musician but replacable.
I think Morrissey confirmed this when he released his first solo album 'Viva Hate'. Frankly you couldn't see the join.
I know there are those that rate Marr very highly as an influence.
But without wanting to diss him entirely, why hasn't he gone on to great things if he's so good?
No, i think The Smiths work would have followed a similar path to that of Morrissey's solo work had they stayed together. With no complaints from me....Great though The Smiths were, I prefer the mature Moz.
I think Morrissey confirmed this when he released his first solo album 'Viva Hate'. Frankly you couldn't see the join.
I know there are those that rate Marr very highly as an influence.
But without wanting to diss him entirely, why hasn't he gone on to great things if he's so good?
No, i think The Smiths work would have followed a similar path to that of Morrissey's solo work had they stayed together. With no complaints from me....Great though The Smiths were, I prefer the mature Moz.
morrissey02
The more you ignore me...
For me and IMHO The Smiths were Moz and J. Marr. So.... The next The Smiths albums would have called Viva Hate, Bona Drag, Kill Uncle, Your Arsenal, etc.
Danny
Senior Member
My impression is that they probably would have sounded similar to Morrissey's work.
The reason I think that is because Johnny Marr seems to take on the musical direction of whoever he's working with. He's a brilliant craftsman rather than an independent artist.
So I think Morrissey would have directed the musical path they took.
The reason I think that is because Johnny Marr seems to take on the musical direction of whoever he's working with. He's a brilliant craftsman rather than an independent artist.
So I think Morrissey would have directed the musical path they took.
Aly Panic
Slap Me On The Patio
Why's that then?
coz i tend to disagree
I think Morrissy has done a damn fine job and he will continue to do so. Don't get me wrong, I adore The Smiths. But if you ask me Morrissey and The Smiths have a lot in common
I love 'em both too but there was something special about JM and Moz working together.
If they were still together today I don't think they'd be loved as much as they are now, they should have carried on for a couple of more years though. All the best bands split up that's why U2, The Charlatans and Rolling Stones are still together.
Lost
New Member
Worm
Taste the diffidence
A great question. One answered in various ways before now.
Musically, of course, it wouldn't have been the same. It's useless to try and speculate what Marr would have done differently than Street, Nevin, Whyte, Boorer, et al. Although it's probably true that Johnny would have become more experimental, and that Morrissey probably would have followed him down certain paths he has, in his solo career, mostly avoided. Maybe not synths and drum machines, but a little farther-reaching than his music is now.
Lyrically, I think it's pretty well accepted that "Viva Hate" is made up of several songs that would have been Smiths tunes. (This is just my speculation, but "Dial-A-Cliche" was first mentioned by Morrissey in '84 or '85, then called "Father And Son".) A few, like "Break Up The Family" and "Oh Well, I'll Never Learn", seem to have been written after. So "Viva Hate" is a pretty close approximation of what a fifth Smiths studio album would have sounded like.
After "Viva Hate" things definitely changed, and I don't think you can say that Morrissey would have written the same songs. In my opinion, a group dynamic-- not necessarily The Smiths, but a true group dynamic, with at least one other equal creative partner (Marr)-- would have meant that Morrissey's lyrics would have changed less than they have. His unwilling climb into the solo realm changed his outlook on songwriting in a very fundamental way. From "Hand In Glove" to "Life Is A Pigsty" Morrissey has basically put his own life in his music, but in The Smiths there was more of a tendency to present it in a more universal form. The Smiths seem more open-ended to me, more accessible to the imagination than most of Morrissey's solo songs. The illusion of being in a group, regardless of how he actually wrote the songs, gave a different texture to his lyrics.
Again, to pre-empt the inevitable reply saying "Morrissey has ALWAYS written autobiographically!", I'm saying it's a subtle but nevertheless important difference in how Morrissey has presented himself autobiographically. His solo songs have gradually evolved from being universal pop songs (that were clearly his own) to being very clearly about himself, about Morrissey the pop star. Earlier songs like "Interesting Drug", "Everyday Is Like Sunday", and "The Last Of The Famous International Playboys" are a little different in perspective, I think, than "Irish Blood, English Heart", "You Have Killed Me", and "Dear God, Please Help Me". The best comparison is between two "state of the nation" songs like "The Queen Is Dead" and "The World Is Full of Crashing Bores". Both are highly unique to Morrissey, but the former is written by Morrissey in a less specific way. It sounds exactly like Morrissey but you can imagine anyone being the "I" in that song. Not so much 'Bores'.
I really can't imagine Marr putting music to "Irish Blood, English Heart", for instance. But I can easily imagine Morrissey and Marr writing a song about some character or subject involving a mix of things English and Irish. The union of personalities brought out a little more objectivity in Morrissey (and kept Marr away from the disco, fortunately).
But as things stand now I'm glad. I think Morrissey has become exactly the singer and writer he should have become. He became a legend in The Smiths, and now he lives out that role perfectly as a solo artist. Not to denigrate his records, which are wonderful, but in the current musical climate his symbolic importance cannot be overestimated. His music-- besides being good in itself-- is much more important as the ex-singer of The Smiths than it would have been had the band remained together.
Musically, of course, it wouldn't have been the same. It's useless to try and speculate what Marr would have done differently than Street, Nevin, Whyte, Boorer, et al. Although it's probably true that Johnny would have become more experimental, and that Morrissey probably would have followed him down certain paths he has, in his solo career, mostly avoided. Maybe not synths and drum machines, but a little farther-reaching than his music is now.
Lyrically, I think it's pretty well accepted that "Viva Hate" is made up of several songs that would have been Smiths tunes. (This is just my speculation, but "Dial-A-Cliche" was first mentioned by Morrissey in '84 or '85, then called "Father And Son".) A few, like "Break Up The Family" and "Oh Well, I'll Never Learn", seem to have been written after. So "Viva Hate" is a pretty close approximation of what a fifth Smiths studio album would have sounded like.
After "Viva Hate" things definitely changed, and I don't think you can say that Morrissey would have written the same songs. In my opinion, a group dynamic-- not necessarily The Smiths, but a true group dynamic, with at least one other equal creative partner (Marr)-- would have meant that Morrissey's lyrics would have changed less than they have. His unwilling climb into the solo realm changed his outlook on songwriting in a very fundamental way. From "Hand In Glove" to "Life Is A Pigsty" Morrissey has basically put his own life in his music, but in The Smiths there was more of a tendency to present it in a more universal form. The Smiths seem more open-ended to me, more accessible to the imagination than most of Morrissey's solo songs. The illusion of being in a group, regardless of how he actually wrote the songs, gave a different texture to his lyrics.
Again, to pre-empt the inevitable reply saying "Morrissey has ALWAYS written autobiographically!", I'm saying it's a subtle but nevertheless important difference in how Morrissey has presented himself autobiographically. His solo songs have gradually evolved from being universal pop songs (that were clearly his own) to being very clearly about himself, about Morrissey the pop star. Earlier songs like "Interesting Drug", "Everyday Is Like Sunday", and "The Last Of The Famous International Playboys" are a little different in perspective, I think, than "Irish Blood, English Heart", "You Have Killed Me", and "Dear God, Please Help Me". The best comparison is between two "state of the nation" songs like "The Queen Is Dead" and "The World Is Full of Crashing Bores". Both are highly unique to Morrissey, but the former is written by Morrissey in a less specific way. It sounds exactly like Morrissey but you can imagine anyone being the "I" in that song. Not so much 'Bores'.
I really can't imagine Marr putting music to "Irish Blood, English Heart", for instance. But I can easily imagine Morrissey and Marr writing a song about some character or subject involving a mix of things English and Irish. The union of personalities brought out a little more objectivity in Morrissey (and kept Marr away from the disco, fortunately).
But as things stand now I'm glad. I think Morrissey has become exactly the singer and writer he should have become. He became a legend in The Smiths, and now he lives out that role perfectly as a solo artist. Not to denigrate his records, which are wonderful, but in the current musical climate his symbolic importance cannot be overestimated. His music-- besides being good in itself-- is much more important as the ex-singer of The Smiths than it would have been had the band remained together.
Worm
Taste the diffidence
It's an apples and oranges comparison. Johnny didn't try to replicate his work with The Smiths except here and there. When he did, for instance in the few songs/guitar parts he added to Billy Bragg's "Don't Try This At Home", he was just as good.
Marr's problem is that he enjoys playing the music he loves, but frankly-- I think we all agree-- he just isn't as good as he thinks he is. He won't accept his own limits. Both Morrissey and Marr were better together than apart, but I think it's obvious now that Morrissey was much better equipped to stand on his own than Marr. I still respect Marr for trying.
His work with Modest Mouse should be interesting.
Anyway, I don't think you can call Marr replaceable. Morrissey's music has been really, really good, but not as good, across the board, as Marr's. It may be the difference between "sublime" and "almost sublime", but it's a difference nonetheless.
Lost
New Member
Oh i disagree entirely. Post Smith's Marr has done nothing of note.
Well, hold on.
The Smiths were a magical, once in a generation, meeting of souls. What they did in a few years will always be remembered for its greatness. What people see as Marr's post-Smiths work being less worthy than The Smiths, is only a reflection of the perceived lack of foil he had to play off. If you asked Marr, I'm sure he'd say his Electronic work with Bernard Sumner and Matt Johnson is among his best work. Certainly, Get The Message and The Beaten Generation is classy stuff that stands up well against Smiths material.
Peter
Lost
New Member
Sorry, it just doesn't compare for me.
Moz's post Smith's work is collossal by comparison.
Worm
Taste the diffidence
Yeah, "nothing of note" is too harsh. I love Electronic's first album and a clutch of songs they did after that, and I've heard stuff from Marr that's really good (Healers, The The, guest appearances). I don't deny for a minute Morrissey has soared since The Smiths and Marr has not, but let's not dismiss Marr too readily. If he played a gig with Morrissey in 2007 everyone here would be weeping with joy from start to finish.
That's not my opinion, it's Marr's. You would have to go and discuss it with him. He repeatedly stated in the recent biography that he thought these songs were among his best work. I didn't state an opinion on it. I actually believe that the songs Marr wrote when he was 21 and recorded with The Smiths were pure genius and will never be bettered.
Peter
Lost
New Member
It would be nice i suppose but i don't hanker for it like many do.
Danny
Senior Member
The point is though, Electronic sounds like New Order, The The sound like The The, Modest Mouse sound like Modest Mouse, The Healers sound like Oasis with a crap singer.
That's what I mean when I say he has no direction of his own. To say he would have got more experimental with The Smiths is just ignoring what he has done since that band. He takes on the personality of whoever he's working with.
If Morrissey got back with Marr I'd be gutted.
Worm
Taste the diffidence
According to your thesis, if he'd been friends with Celine Dion instead of Chrissie Hynde, he'd have written drippy muzak ballads. I don't think that's true.
It's a chicken and egg situation. He takes on the personality of Barney, Matt Johnson, and the rest, but only because he works with people who make music he's interested in. He wanted to write a disco pop record, so he called up Bernard. And I am a huge New Order fan and I have to tell you, I can clearly hear Marr's touches in the funk influences and the style of the guitar riffs.
When I say "experimental" I don't mean he would've turned into John Cale or something. I just mean that "Strangeways" was a bit of a departure-- not much, but a little-- and I think the trend would have been toward songs like "Death of A Disco Dancer", "A Rush And A Push", and "Last Night I Dreamt". Atmospheric effects, orchestras more than guitars, more adventurous structures, random sound. Always recognizably "Smiths", but some different directions. Morrissey would have restrained his output, yes, but I really don't think he'd have dictated the musical direction.
I'm not sure I'd be "gutted" if Morrissey and Marr joined up again, but yes I'd be disappointed. I've nothing but praise for Morrissey's courage as a solo artist and to be honest if Marr came back into the fold it would be as if he were crawling on all fours. No dignity in it. Morrissey towers over him now.
Still, the thought of a small tour or something...
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