Morrissey Central MEAT IS … MURDER? STILL A DEBATE??? (February 26, 2020)

The Sun link doesn't work on my phone, so I've no idea if it's PETA or a farmer who has been cruel.




The Sun link:

 
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Mozmar

Well-Known Member
I was astonished to read that someone thinks that information wasn’t freely available before the internet. That made me chuckle.

I've only just seen this comment as it appeared above & in Aubrey's response to it.
I don't see 'anon' posts, which is what yours was.

Regardless, I stand by what I said. At that time, neither vegetarianism, nor veganism, were on my radar at all, & for me not even on the internet as I had no interest in such matters & therefore didn't go to seek it out.

I was, & still am, a meat eater. I have only researched both subjects, probably more vegan related to be honest, since visiting this site, which in itself holds some form of irony.

The information which may well have been available pre-internet would, in my view, have been very limited & less easier to access by comparison to what is widely available these days. This was the point I was making in other related posts, especially where I mentioned I knew people who were effectively dabbling with what they perceived to be (their own version of) vegetarianism.

If I'd have had a strong interest, or been aware of the subject & had it attracted my interest, then for sure I would have sought out that information from whatever source(s) might have been available.

As it happened, it held no interest for me. You would say I was ignorant, but I would maintain that I was blissfully unaware because the 2 subjects never appeared anywhere in my life at that time.
 
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Morrissey wears Alexander McQueen cardigan (wool/cashmere) on C à vous
Cardigan available here :

Alexander McQueen: Peacock Feather Embellished Cardigan - Harrods.com
ID 5644959003
USD 1,467.77

Beware! dry cleaning only.

DETAILS
  • Long sleeve cardigan with ribbed trims
  • V-Neck
  • Button fastening
  • Peacock embellishment
  • 70% wool, 30% cashmere
  • Dry clean
  • Model wears a size M
  • Made in Italy
OVERVIEW
Exclusively showcasing at Harrods, this Alexander McQueen cardigan is embellished with a peacock feather to the chest giving a nod to the inspiration for the Autumn/Winter 2017 collection - the aestheticism of Oscar Wilde. Exquisitely crafted from an Italian-woven blend of cashmere and virgin wool, the button fastening secures to command a smart V-neckline.




Here we 4kin go again :unsure:
Brilliant news that the bastard got caught BUT !
Coming from someone who wears the end product ??????
What a wanker :clap:
It was bad enough with the elephant/piano stunt but this !
Just 4ck off Steven.

??:knife:

You should take your own advice and f*** off. I know it's a struggle for Gamma's to stop trolling but try. Nothing but hate and negativity so just go
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I can't quite tell if you're a troll or not, posing as Vegan Nonpareil to make Morrissey look like an abattoir worker by comparison, but I'm not sure how the logical conclusion of your position wouldn't be suicide. Surely you know that the tilling of fields to grow the vegetables you consume requires the deaths of critters and insects. Even to eschew crops and subsist as a gatherer of nuts, berries, and mushrooms, the act of taking a nature walk to do your foraging results in the death of countless worms and crawlers under the leaves and the ground.

I think pescetarians can make the case that there are different degrees of animal consciousness, and that mammalian consciousness can be reasonably thought of as more complex and acute than fish consciousness. (I would have to be considered a pescetarian by proxy, because I own a carnivorous pet, and I feed her fish. I think there's less suffering in the life and death of, say, a farmed tuna than there is in the life and death of a dairy cow. Fish, for example, don't bond with or yearn or mourn for their young like cattle do. They lay their eggs and swim away, seemingly unthinkingly). I do think an important logical position for a vegan, though, apart from suicide, should we choose to continue in our lives, is anti-natalism. Because there's no guarantee that one's child won't apostatize from veganism, and go on to participate (in full) for the rest of their life in animal suffering and slaughter.

But we're all participating (in part) in the suffering and death of sentient creatures so long as we live. The only true vegan non nonpareil is the vegan who is dead by his or her own hand. Everyone else in the vegan community, even you, is only vegan to some percentage or degree. I'm not sure what the precise percentage threshold is for someone to not be a hypocrite, but Morrissey is well over 90%. And childless. I do agree with you that clothes are something important to be taken into consideration. Not making excuses for the great man, but maybe if he wore wool, it was something he owned from before he was aware of the suffering involved. That's reasonable to assume. I still wear the wool and leather things I purchased before I became more committed. And I'll buy leather and wool if it's in a second-hand store, because my money isn't going to the producer. Maybe this is wrong. But it seems like being alive would be wrong if I took everything into consideration.

Morrissey, whether you believe it or not, puts himself in the firing line simply because of the strong opinions he claims to have but in actuality doesn’t follow through on. If he was unaware of the cruelty involved in the production of wool and cashmere in 2017 then I’d be very much surprised.

From 2012: https://www.peta.org.uk/blog/morrissey-urges-uniqlo-to-dump-cruelly-produced-australian-wool/

“But we're all participating (in part) in the suffering and death of sentient creatures so long as we live.”

I couldn’t agree more. That’s why, as has also been said, veganism isn’t about perfection it’s about limiting the harm to animals as best we can. It’s about committing to ideals of compassion in the hope that we can reduce suffering.

I do not anthropomorphise animals and have always disagreed with the notion that there are different degrees of animal consciousness. It has always suited humans to engender this belief i.e. they are less than us and can be exploited as such.

When I had a dog and cat there were both vegan. It was often remarked that I was being cruel. My vet thought otherwise – giving them both clean bills of health over many, many years.

We chose not to have kids simply because to do so flew in the face of what we believed: we live on an over-populated planet.

I removed myself from the college veg. society because those on the Board chose to continue using leather and other products with the claim “well, it’s already dead what does that matter now?” It matters because it normalises products that continue to cause animals suffering. It wasn’t a line for them. It was for me.

I think I know my place in the world and I do know that I cannot change how all of the vegetables come to my plate but I do what I can do minimise harm to any creature which includes buying only organic foods. Buying organic isn’t something I can always afford but it’s organic or nothing. I also grow my own veg/fruit in which it is rare (I’d like to say it never happens but the fact is I don’t know) for any ‘critter’ to be harmed. I also look where I walk and avoid ‘critters’ on pavements etc. and have done so since I was a child.

I do all of the above because I believe in this way of life. I don’t believe I’m better than anyone or anything. It’s a way of life that is on the whole easy to accommodate to and one that makes me feel content with my lot. When I shuffle off I hope that people will say “He left no footprints”. *cue footprints comments*
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I was astonished to read that someone thinks that information wasn’t freely available before the internet. That made me chuckle.

I've only just seen this comment as it appeared above & in Aubrey's response to it.
I don't see 'anon' posts, which is what yours was.

Regardless, I stand by what I said. At that time, neither vegetarianism, nor veganism, were on my radar at all, & for me not even on the internet as I had no interest in such matters & therefore didn't go to seek it out.

I was, & still am, a meat eater. I have only researched both subjects, probably more vegan related to be honest, since visiting this site, which in itself holds some form of irony.

The information which may well have been available pre-internet would, in my view, have been very limited & less easier to access by comparison to what is widely available these days. This was the point I was making in other related posts, especially where I mentioned I knew people who were effectively dabbling with what they perceived to be (their own version of) vegetarianism.

If I'd have had a strong interest, or been aware of the subject & had it attracted my interest, then for sure I would have sought out that information from whatever source(s) might have been available.

As it happened, it held no interest for me. You would say I was ignorant, but I would maintain that I was blissfully unaware because the 2 subjects never appeared anywhere in my life at that time.

You won't see this but no matter ....

What you claim above is not what you actaully said though, was it?

"Given that The Smiths were only around in the '80's, & it was only as recent as 1995, that a mere 0.04% of the world's population had access to the internet (FACT), how could any 'vegetarian' have had the full insight & access to the information levels that we have today, especially regarding the point you tediously raise on animal rennet?

I can't be arsed responding to your other ill-advised & juvenile entries.

I couldn't see a 'yawn' or 'bored' icon to assign to your post, so had to resort to typing.

The initial discussion was not about you it was about Morrissey. It was about the level of information that Morrissey would have had access to in the late 70s / early 80s. You also seemed to suggest that the internet offers fuller insight but don't go on to explain how? Can you not gain insight from a book, a leaflet a conversation?

I make a reasonable assumption that if Morrissey were as bookish (accessing libraries) as he claimed and as passionate about animals and vegetarianism as he claimed then it is more than likely that he would be aware, at that time, of what rennet was. If he had any contact whatsover with other vegetarians and animal rights groups the information would be in his domain. These were much debated topics of the time.

You counter argue that "I would maintain that I was blissfully unaware because the 2 subjects never appeared anywhere in my life at that time." I would respond that remains true for anyone who is blissfully unaware whether they have the internet or not. The internet only provides asnwers to questions asked.
 
C

carlislebaz

Guest
:LOL:

Like I said Baz, depends where you lived. I knew nothing about the veg thing. That's not to say they/it wasn't around as obviously it was. It just didn't exist in my circles. It was the sort of thing students did. Mind you I was in the military then so if I'd have been a veggie I'd likely have starved to death, got a kicking or called names of some sort.
Yes remember them days if you or people were different you got filled in. My good self used to take a lot of stick for wearing smiths t shirts.... it would have been tough in the military being veggie.
 
N

NoVeg4Me

Guest
Yes remember them days if you or people were different you got filled in. My good self used to take a lot of stick for wearing smiths t shirts.... it would have been tough in the military being veggie.

The last bus home is the dangerous one,
A baseball bat against the collarbone.
Lifeguard.
Lifeguard save me from life.
Save me from life.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
Morrissey, whether you believe it or not, puts himself in the firing line simply because of the strong opinions he claims to have but in actuality doesn’t follow through on. If he was unaware of the cruelty involved in the production of wool and cashmere in 2017 then I’d be very much surprised.

Still, though, that doesn't prove he purchased the clothes in question before he knew, or whether he bought them second-hand, or if they were a gift, or if the director of the video gave him the outfit to wear on the set and he just didn't pause to think on it. There are plenty of charitable explanations that don't necessitate berating Morrissey.

I think I know my place in the world and I do know that I cannot change how all of the vegetables come to my plate but I do what I can do minimise harm to any creature which includes buying only organic foods.

This doesn't answer the problem of suicide, though. It is an action which is available to you, one which would ensure that you would never again be the cause of any suffering to any sentient creature (the only exception being the human primates who would suffer emotionally over your death. But when compared to the animals who suffer in vegetable production, this concern is far outweighed).

So if veganism "isn't about perfection" as you claim (and I agree), then why harass Morrissey who is closer to perfection than, say, 98% of all persons? It seems petty. Even if he did somehow, for the sake of argument, deliberately choose to purchase a wool product once or twice, how is that being selfish any more, in principle at least, than the vegan who chooses not to self-destruct? If we coldly remove the emotions that assail us over the question, and look at it clinically, both are instances of selfishness at the expense of animal suffering. If strong opinions require following through on principle, then you and Morrissey should both be dead. To Morrissey's credit, he does have a suicide ballad.
 
T

The Irish Hare

Guest
Another example of ignorance. Had you bothered to read the factual information in this thread you would have noticed that Morrissey WAS perverse enough to wear garments borne from animal cruelty.

Apparently, what you do or don't think holds sway over fact. It's an affliction that seems to be catching and prevalent in a certain age group.

This infantile squawking of

"Ooooh he's so perverse"

"Oooh, he's such a contrarian"

read more like insults than compliments
I don't know why you have quotation marks around your ooohs, because it's not an actual quote, just your interpretation.
I read plenty of factual information, not a lot of it , on this thread though. They're more like opinions which is fine. I have my opinion, you have yours. I don't do name calling, I find it ignorant and infantile.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Still, though, that doesn't prove he purchased the clothes in question before he knew, or whether he bought them second-hand, or if they were a gift, or if the director of the video gave him the outfit to wear on the set and he just didn't pause to think on it. There are plenty of charitable explanations that don't necessitate berating Morrissey.



This doesn't answer the problem of suicide, though. It is an action which is available to you, one which would ensure that you would never again be the cause of any suffering to any sentient creature (the only exception being the human primates who would suffer emotionally over your death. But when compared to the animals who suffer in vegetable production, this concern is far outweighed).

So if veganism "isn't about perfection" as you claim (and I agree), then why harass Morrissey who is closer to perfection than, say, 98% of all persons? It seems petty. Even if he did somehow, for the sake of argument, deliberately choose to purchase a wool product once or twice, how is that being selfish any more, in principle at least, than the vegan who chooses not to self-destruct? If we coldly remove the emotions that assail us over the question, and look at it clinically, both are instances of selfishness at the expense of animal suffering. If strong opinions require following through on principle, then you and Morrissey should both be dead. To Morrissey's credit, he does have a suicide ballad.

Morrissey is innocent
He's being victimised
Poor Morrissey
Boo hoo
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
A fashion designer can be using recycled or repurposed wool, cashmere fibers. They can also work closely with small wool & cashmere farmers that follow strict antI-cruelty guidelines. They can also use cutting-edge fibers that simulate real (silk) fibers. Morrissey wears the clothes of one such contemporary designer, and have sought out others. He also must have an extensive vintage/thrift collection of clothes/ accessories. Items that are recycled. The world can end the future use of cruel animal fur, skin, fibers, but the surplus is already there, destined to end up in a land-fill, it would be best to donate and recycle. Drop them off at vintage/thrift stores; drop off unwearable textiles (clothes/shoes) for recycling. Real fur can be donated a charity that sends them to a animal sanctuaries who uses them as bedding, for orphans. Doing something objective. And,about that cardigan, judging from the old photo of him wearing it, I can see that the buttons don't look like the original, it appears less expensive, the color also looks more drab, and feather didnt look especially luxurious or rich.. I suspect that the designer made him or whoever gifted it to him, another version of the original, using synthetic materials.
 
B

Benny-the-British-Butcher

Guest
:rofl:

Well said. Kidz these days, eh .......

"Alexa! Alexa! Could you scan the internet for stuff about things and then post it on Moz Solo? No. I don't need to read or review it. The internet is fact. FACT!"

4kin hilarious on here today, you couldn’t make it up.
If Steve announced the moon was made of Kerrygold Dubliner cheese these empty head thick twunty4kwit nut jobs would have no trouble backing him up.

Black is white
List of the Lost was the greatest book penguin ever released
Steve is not gay
The huge 2 date tour of the UK is a sold out success
The poor reviews of Steve On A Chain is just the hateful British press not listening
Steve never said those nasty things to Der Spiegel (even though he did really)

Bless them all and bless Alexa :highfive:

??:knife:
 

pewtavert

Alabaster Crashes Down
I think that it is more controversial than ever with the introduction of the Keto and Vegan Diets and so many people being more health conscious than ever before.
 
A

anonymous

Guest
4kin hilarious on here today, you couldn’t make it up.
If Steve announced the moon was made of Kerrygold Dubliner cheese these empty head thick twunty4kwit nut jobs would have no trouble backing him up.

Black is white
List of the Lost was the greatest book penguin ever released
Steve is not gay
The huge 2 date tour of the UK is a sold out success
The poor reviews of Steve On A Chain is just the hateful British press not listening
Steve never said those nasty things to Der Spiegel (even though he did really)

Bless them all and bless Alexa :highfive:

??:knife:
I'm sure you're glad that sheep shearer was convicted of animal cruelty though.
 
B

Benny-the-British-Butcher

Guest
A fashion designer can be using recycled or repurposed wool, cashmere fibers. They can also work closely with small wool & cashmere farmers that follow strict antI-cruelty guidelines. They can also use cutting-edge fibers that simulate real (silk) fibers. Morrissey wears the clothes of one such contemporary designer, and have sought out others. He also must have an extensive vintage/thrift collection of clothes/ accessories. Items that are recycled. The world can end the future use of cruel animal fur, skin, fibers, but the surplus is already there, destined to end up in a land-fill, it would be best to donate and recycle. Drop them off at vintage/thrift stores; drop off unwearable textiles (clothes/shoes) for recycling. Real fur can be donated a charity that sends them to a animal sanctuaries who uses them as bedding, for orphans. Doing something objective. And,about that cardigan, judging from the old photo of him wearing it, I can see that the buttons don't look like the original, it appears less expensive, the color also looks more drab, and feather didnt look especially luxurious or rich.. I suspect that the designer made him or whoever gifted it to him, another version of the original, using synthetic materials.

No problem pal :thumb:
No doubt the earth is flat as a pancake and fossils and dinosaurs are make believe too.
May the leader bless you and yours.
Take care.

??:knife:
 
B

Benny-the-British-Butcher

Guest
Let’s just try and get the train back on the track kids.
Steven the so called vegan who tells ya’ll to stop watching the news.
Now informing you via the British tabloid press (Scottish Sun) about a nasty piece of shit who shears sheep for wool to make clothing.
The same woolly clothing that the cult leader has been caught wearing.

The leader is as thick as shit.
We’ve caught him out shitloads in the past. He never learns.
Bless his woolly socks :clap:

??:knife:
 
B

Benny-the-British-Butcher

Guest
I'm sure you're glad that sheep shearer was convicted of animal cruelty though.

I’m glad him and his brave mates have been convicted Yes, but whatever the sentence they get I’m very confident they won’t suffer any pain anywhere close to what those poor sheep were given.
I’d much rather give the spineless bastards a taste of their own medicine plus a bit more for the hell of it.
A small stretch or fine doesn’t fit the crime but I have said enough NO DOUBT I’ll be in trouble now.

?? :knife:
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
Morrissey is innocent
He's being victimised
Poor Morrissey
Boo hoo

That wasn't quite my point, but even if Morrissey was guilty in this instance, even if that were true, he would still be a more substantial reducer of animal suffering than any unfamous vegetarian or vegan. Because you would also have to take into account the effects of his evangelization for vegetarianism. Morrissey could be dining on bacon cheeseburgers and milkshakes every night (God forbid), and yet he would still have been the cause of much less animal suffering than you, since he has converted far more people to vegetarianism, which would more than make up for his own individual transgressions.

It's perverse, I know, but it would be better for a private hypocrite to live out their life and convert thousands of others, than it would be for an obscure saint to live their life of perfection and convert only a few dozen or hundred. Which is why, statistically, it's objectively better for a hedonic consumerist and eater of meat to have zero children than it is for a minimalist vegan to sire two. The "footprint" of the former will be less overall: it ends at their own death.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The harsh truth ……

Moz spoke out against the cruelty of using wool.
Moz is often an advocate for PETA.
PETA “No amount of fluff can hide the fact that anyone who buys wool supports a cruel and bloody industry.”
In 2017 Morrissey wore wool products.
Moz preaches one thing and does another.
Moz is a hypocrite. And ... not for the first time.

“Telling you all
That you never wanted to know
Showing you what
You didn't want shown
... I would sooner be
Just blindly Loved"
 
P

ProfessionalSheepShearer

Guest
The harsh truth ……

Moz spoke out against the cruelty of using wool.
Moz is often an advocate for PETA.
PETA “No amount of fluff can hide the fact that anyone who buys wool supports a cruel and bloody industry.”
In 2017 Morrissey wore wool products.
Moz preaches one thing and does another.
Moz is a hypocrite. And ... not for the first time.

“Telling you all
That you never wanted to know
Showing you what
You didn't want shown
... I would sooner be
Just blindly Loved"

Wouldn't tits like you be better off protesting with the rest of your freaky ilk outside stores like M&S or other clothes retailers rather than just posting on moz-so-lo? Maybe you could just go in your polythene nappy or something like a black bin liner tied tightly around the neck. Antiwool my arse.
 
M

MeatDevourer

Guest
I see the sub-species people are still boiling dogs & cats over in chinois-land...they're also looking to start offering elephant & lion on their takeaway menus in the UK soon, apparently.
 

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