Mike Joyce on the Queen's Christmas address; suggests Morrissey sort peace treaty - NME

marred

Member
You call him a "douche bag" because he did something to upset your favourite pop star: how truly f***ing pathetic.

Grow up.

You poor thing. I guess at least it must bring you some kind of bliss being so damn ignorant.

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Even without the court case, there would still have never been a Smiths reunion.

If it was purely the court case preventing a reunion, Morrissey and Marr could have worked together again. They were, after all, on the same side against Joyce.

But they haven't.

The reason why Morrissey has never agreed to a reunion is because he's never forgiven Marr for walking away, and is too stubborn to give him another chance.

He has also felt that the Smiths have overshadowed his solo career, and doesn't want to "admit defeat" in going back to the Smiths.

Also, like many people, I think Morrissey has a narcissistic streak which quite likes the fact that he has had the best post-Smiths career. I think he likes having more fame and wealth than Marr, Rourke and Joyce and doesn't want to share that with them.

Have you actually read Autobiography? Morrissey and Marr may have been on the same side technically during the court case but they weren't on the same side mentally.
 

Kewpie

Member
Moderator
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Even without the court case, there would still have never been a Smiths reunion.

If it was purely the court case preventing a reunion, Morrissey and Marr could have worked together again. They were, after all, on the same side against Joyce.

But they haven't.

The reason why Morrissey has never agreed to a reunion is because he's never forgiven Marr for walking away, and is too stubborn to give him another chance.

He has also felt that the Smiths have overshadowed his solo career, and doesn't want to "admit defeat" in going back to the Smiths.

Also, like many people, I think Morrissey has a narcissistic streak which quite likes the fact that he has had the best post-Smiths career. I think he likes having more fame and wealth than Marr, Rourke and Joyce and doesn't want to share that with them.

In 1998 when Morrissey won Outstanding Contribution of Ivor Novello Awards, he thanked Johnny in his speech.

I believe at that point Morrissey was no longer bitter what happened in 1987.

It was an awful pity that although Joyce and Rourke were aware of a possibility of Smiths reunion in future, they decided to go to court.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
You poor thing. I guess at least it must bring you some kind of bliss being so damn ignorant.

You don't do 'patronising' very convincingly. It might've worked better if you'd responded to what I said, first.

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You poor thing. I guess at least it must bring you some kind of bliss being so damn ignorant.

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Have you actually read Autobiography? Morrissey and Marr may have been on the same side technically during the court case but they weren't on the same side mentally.

Yeah, that's an important distinction, in law.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Moz couldn't admit defeat because he has never been defeated. Even during the 'wilderness years' he enjoyed sold out concerts and constant name checking by other lesser artists. His solo albums are just as good if not better than a lot of The Smiths albums. Moz moved on years ago. Everyone else should too. Who needs a reunion after the fantastic 'World Peace' and the chance of another album next year?

"'World Peace'" was irredeemably bad and he hasn't made a decent record since the mid-90s.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
In 1998 when Morrissey won Outstanding Contribution of Ivor Novello Awards, he thanked Johnny in his speech.

I believe at that point Morrissey was no longer bitter what happened in 1987.

It was an awful pity that although Joyce and Rourke were aware of a possibility of Smiths reunion in future, they decided to go to court.

I think that is possibly an oversimplified view of things Kewpie. Morrissey and Marr's post-Smiths relationship seems to be as complex as it was during The Smiths. There seems to be periods where they have both been conciliatory towards each other followed by periods of bitterness on both sides. Remember as far back as '94 when Marr was allegedly going around telling people that he and Moz were working together again? Then a year or two later he infers in interviews that he would never work with Moz. There are clearly periods where Morrissey has reached out and been rebutted by Marr and vice versa. At a guess (and let's face it that's what we're all doing here, guessing) I'd say the people around both of them add an interesting dynamic to their ongoing relationship as well. I think it's an understated element of what led to the demise of the band. Who was in Johnny's ear at the time? And once the band began to crumble what sort of advice was Morrissey receiving from his confidants? As has also been alluded to in this thread was Mike's decision to sue entirely his own or were other agenda's at play? It all strikes me as very Shakespearean at times, a kitchen sink version of Othello. But who was the Iago? Or Iago's?

These two strike me as a couple of dance partners that are terribly out of sync. One tries to lead, then the other but they don't have the rhythm quite right and with every misstep it gets worse. However at least it saves us from the dreadful proposition of a Smiths reunion. Like many other's though I wouldn't be opposed to see Morrissey and Marr work together one last time as a duo. I'd personally like to see them release just one cracking single with a couple of ace b-sides, straight in at Number One and give them the one cherished achievement they have't achieved in their careers. After all as they always said they were a singles band primarily.

An acoustic version on a British TV and then riding off into the sunset. Of course it won't happen that way but dreams are free....................
 
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Anonymous

Guest
In 1998 when Morrissey won Outstanding Contribution of Ivor Novello Awards, he thanked Johnny in his speech.

I believe at that point Morrissey was no longer bitter what happened in 1987.

It was an awful pity that although Joyce and Rourke were aware of a possibility of Smiths reunion in future, they decided to go to court.

Johnny did say a couple of years ago that Morrissey wouldn't answer his emails.
 

Kewpie

Member
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Subscriber
I think that is possibly an oversimplified view of things Kewpie. Morrissey and Marr's post-Smiths relationship seems to be as complex as it was during The Smiths. There seems to be periods where they have both been conciliatory towards each other followed by periods of bitterness on both sides. Remember as far back as '94 when Marr was allegedly going around telling people that he and Moz were working together again? Then a year or two later he infers in interviews that he would never work with Moz. There are clearly periods where Morrissey has reached out and been rebutted by Marr and vice versa. At a guess (and let's face it that's what we're all doing here, guessing) I'd say the people around both of them add an interesting dynamic to their ongoing relationship as well. I think it's an understated element of what led to the demise of the band. Who was in Johnny's ear at the time? And once the band began to crumble what sort of advice was Morrissey receiving from his confidants? As has also been alluded to in this thread was Mike's decision to sue entirely his own or were other agenda's at play? It all strikes me as very Shakespearean at times, a kitchen sink version of Othello. But who was the Iago? Or Iago's?

These two strike me as a couple of dance partners that are terribly out of sync. One tries to lead, then the other but they don't have the rhythm quite right and with every misstep it gets worse. However at least it saves us from the dreadful proposition of a Smiths reunion. Like many other's though I wouldn't be opposed to see Morrissey and Marr work together one last time as a duo. I'd personally like to see them release just one cracking single with a couple of ace b-sides, straight in at Number One and give them the one cherished achievement they have't achieved in their careers. After all as they always said they were a singles band primarily.

An acoustic version on a British TV and then riding off into the sunset. Of course it won't happen that way but dreams are free....................

It is the first time to hear that in 1994 Johnny was telling people that he was working with Morrissey again.

I was extremely lucky to see Smiths live four times in July 1986.
I'm as ambivalent as Morrissey about the reunion.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
It is the first time to hear that in 1994 Johnny was telling people that he was working with Morrissey again.

I was extremely lucky to see Smiths live four times in July 1986.
I'm as ambivalent as Morrissey about the reunion.

From memory he was on the cover of 'Uncut' magazine and the quote was: If were work together again it will be as Morrissey & Marr. Around the same time Johny Rogan penned a preview piece in the NME about the upcoming Vauxhall album and mentioned something about Johnny running into either Andy or Mike (or it could have been both of them) at a wedding and telling them he was working with Moz again. I believe Rogan even insinuated that Marr may have guested on the Billy Budd track as the guitar work seemed very similar to his style.
 

Kewpie

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From memory he was on the cover of 'Uncut' magazine and the quote was: If were work together again it will be as Morrissey & Marr. Around the same time Johny Rogan penned a preview piece in the NME about the upcoming Vauxhall album and mentioned something about Johnny running into either Andy or Mike (or it could have been both of them) at a wedding and telling them he was working with Moz again. I believe Rogan even insinuated that Marr may have guested on the Billy Budd track as the guitar work seemed very similar to his style.

Thank you very much for the info. :)
 

jdbabz

Member
I think that people are crediting Joyce with too much intelligence. Morrissey from reading Autobiography of course condemned Joyce for what he did but also realized that Joyce was not aware of just how far his action against Morrissey and Marr would go and the damage it wrought i.e. the band irreparably torn asunder for good, the pursuit of Morrissey's mums house etc...

Every time Joyce says something in the press I can only reflect on how naive he is. His cloying approval of Morrissey in the statement above despite Moz's hatred of him being a case in point.

(He's an excellent dj though I've really enjoyed his radio shows and his surprisingly good music choices, I don't deplore the man).
 
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Chickpea

pithy yet degenerate
I think that people are crediting Joyce with too much intelligence. Morrissey from reading Autobiography of course condemned Joyce for what he did but also realized that Joyce was not aware of just how far his action against Morrissey and Marr would go and the damage it wrought i.e. the band irreparably torn asunder for good, the pursuit of Morrissey's mums house etc...

Every time Joyce says something in the press I can only reflect on how naive he is. His cloying approval of Morrissey in the statement above despite Moz's hatred of him being a case in point.

I agree with you on all points here. This is my impression of him and his actions as well—it's almost as though the whole thing got away from him and the lawsuit took on a life of its own that he naively did not anticipate. He seems to really believe that one day the phone will ring and Morrissey will say it's all water under the bridge, but that is never going to happen.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
who are we kidding? if they had not sued and HAD Moz by some miracle agreed to reunion shows, the drummer and bassist would have been paid a couple of hundred pounds each at most.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I think that people are crediting Joyce with too much intelligence. Morrissey from reading Autobiography of course condemned Joyce for what he did but also realized that Joyce was not aware of just how far his action against Morrissey and Marr would go and the damage it wrought i.e. the band irreparably torn asunder for good, the pursuit of Morrissey's mums house etc...

Every time Joyce says something in the press I can only reflect on how naive he is. His cloying approval of Morrissey in the statement above despite Moz's hatred of him being a case in point.

(He's an excellent dj though I've really enjoyed his radio shows and his surprisingly good music choices, I don't deplore the man).

I think you do Joyce a disservice. Morrissey hates him and he recognises this. Every time he says something nice about Morrissey, that's bound to piss Morrissey off. By being nice, he's showing himself to be the bigger man and, in private at least, probably laughing at Morrissey's impotent rage.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
So what? He successfully sued Morrissey and the court made the right decision and then Morrissey, being a sore loser, refused to pay up so Joyce pursued the legal remedies that were open to him. What's it to you?

Dry your eyes and move on.
Allegedly using legal aid to put a lien on a senior citizen's home is a disgraceful use of taxpayer money.
 

Roy Keane

New Member
For f***'s sake... Joyce took the case to court because Morrissey & Marr tried to cheat him out of what he was owed. Morrissey lost because, legally, he was in the wrong. It's really as simple as that.

No, Joyce won because of a quirk in the law combined with the laziness/lack of foresight on the part of Morrissey and Marr by not reducing the terms to writing.
 

jdbabz

Member
I think you do Joyce a disservice. Morrissey hates him and he recognises this. Every time he says something nice about Morrissey, that's bound to piss Morrissey off. By being nice, he's showing himself to be the bigger man and, in private at least, probably laughing at Morrissey's impotent rage.

Well that depends what you believe and I believe that most certainly at one time Joyce wanted forgiveness and the band to reform and that he has a genuine nostalgia for the band the Smiths because that was the height of his career. He is nice about the Smiths and Morrissey because he genuinely feels that way which is a bit sad considering Morrissey's contempt but there you have it. I think he thought at one stage the spark could be kept alive but "all men kill the thing they love" Oscar Wilde.
 

marred

Member
Well that depends what you believe and I believe that most certainly at one time Joyce wanted forgiveness and the band to reform and that he has a genuine nostalgia for the band the Smiths because that was the height of his career. He is nice about the Smiths and Morrissey because he genuinely feels that way which is a bit sad considering Morrissey's contempt but there you have it. I think he thought at one stage the spark could be kept alive but "all men kill the thing they love" Oscar Wilde.

The Smiths was his career.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
No, Joyce won because of a quirk in the law combined with the laziness/lack of foresight on the part of Morrissey and Marr by not reducing the terms to writing.

A "quirk" in the law? No, there's nothing "quirky" about it. Joyce won because the law - s.24(1) of the Partnership Act 1890 - supported his position. Granted, it's an old piece of legislation, but that isn't important or even relevant. It remains on the statute book and has effect, regardless of its age, until and unless it's repealed. You could argue that the Act hasn't been repealed precisely because it the principles underlying it are still considered to be just (by everybody except Morrissey, that is).
 
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Anonymous

Guest
From memory he was on the cover of 'Uncut' magazine and the quote was: If were work together again it will be as Morrissey & Marr.

That was just the headline cover quote. The full quote in Johnny's interview read something like: 'If we were to work together again it will be as Morrissey & Marr, not The Smiths. But that's hypothetical. With the emphasis on pathetic."

So, not exactly running around telling people a reunion was on the cards, but certainly, for a brief time in the mid-90's, the relationship between them was at least amicable.

We've now reached the stage where - apparently - Johnny has reached out a few times to Morrissey over the past few years , and he hasn't responded, so he's pretty much given up on him. In contrast, during Morrissey's early solo years, he was desperate to get back together with Johnny, who didn't want to know. The two are just tragically out of sync, and I suspect will always be so. When one of them dies, the other will suddenly realise what they've missed, and be there singing their praises to the heavens, but it will be all too late.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
That was just the headline cover quote. The full quote in Johnny's interview read something like: 'If we were to work together again it will be as Morrissey & Marr, not The Smiths. But that's hypothetical. With the emphasis on pathetic."

So, not exactly running around telling people a reunion was on the cards, but certainly, for a brief time in the mid-90's, the relationship between them was at least amicable.

We've now reached the stage where - apparently - Johnny has reached out a few times to Morrissey over the past few years , and he hasn't responded, so he's pretty much given up on him. In contrast, during Morrissey's early solo years, he was desperate to get back together with Johnny, who didn't want to know. The two are just tragically out of sync, and I suspect will always be so. When one of them dies, the other will suddenly realise what they've missed, and be there singing their praises to the heavens, but it will be all too late.

And Rogan's piece in the NME which I think also had a quote from Joyce on Morrissey and Marr working together again?
 
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