Mike Joyce @ The UK Drum Show, Manchester 30th September

[annonymous]

Mike is to be interviewed at The UK Drum show, @ Manchester Central (formally GMEX, where Mike performed with The Smiths) on the above date.
Details
http://theukdrumshow.com/artists/mike-joyce/

 

[Anonymous]

Mike is to be interviewed at The UK Drum show, @ Manchester Central (formally GMEX, where Mike performed with The Smiths) on the above date.
Details
http://theukdrumshow.com/artists/mike-joyce/

The UK Drum Show on Sunday 30th of September 2018.

 

[Zoinks]

The dude is a snake who ruined the legacy of the Smiths, other than that, have fun at the drum show!

 

[reelfountain]

The dude is a snake who ruined the legacy of the Smiths, other than that, have fun at the drum show!

Joyce was entitled to his fair share of group royalties that were denied to him. That's why he won the court case. If it were songwriting royalties, then fair enough, but it wasn't.

Why do some people have a problem with this?

 

[Anonymous]

Joyce was entitled to his fair share of group royalties that were denied to him. That's why he won the court case. If it were songwriting royalties, then fair enough, but it wasn't.
Why do some people have a problem with this?

Quite simply because the group's tasks were not distributed evenly. Morrissey got no payment for designing the record sleeves, and doing most of the interviews, for example. Marr got no payment for effectively managing the band. Rourke and Joyce showed up, played their instruments and buggered off. For Marr and Morrissey the Smiths was a full-time job with near-constant overtime. If anything, Marr should probably have been paid a bit more than Morrissey but there is no way in the world that the Rourke/Joyce should have been on the same pay as Marr/Morrissey. Just madness.

 

[vegan cro spirit 88]

How much is LMW Mike willing to pay for me to take those 'autographed' drumsticks off his hands.

 

[mcrickson]

Joyce was entitled to his fair share of group royalties that were denied to him. That's why he won the court case. If it were songwriting royalties, then fair enough, but it wasn't.

Why do some people have a problem with this?

Quite simply because the group's tasks were not distributed evenly. Morrissey got no payment for designing the record sleeves, and doing most of the interviews, for example. Marr got no payment for effectively managing the band. Rourke and Joyce showed up, played their instruments and buggered off. For Marr and Morrissey the Smiths was a full-time job with near-constant overtime. If anything, Marr should probably have been paid a bit more than Morrissey but there is no way in the world that the Rourke/Joyce should have been on the same pay as Marr/Morrissey. Just madness.

Christ, this again.

 

[Zoinks]

Joyce was entitled to his fair share of group royalties that were denied to him. That's why he won the court case. If it were songwriting royalties, then fair enough, but it wasn't.

Why do some people have a problem with this?

Because the deal was that he and Andy were supposed to get 10% and Morrissey told him if he didn't like it, he could leave and he took the deal. The mistake was that they didn't get it in writing. This is not an unusual arrangement for bands. Some bands pay a straight fee for performance.

 

[Peppermint]

Because the deal was that he and Andy were supposed to get 10% and Morrissey told him if he didn't like it, he could leave and he took the deal. The mistake was that they didn't get it in writing. This is not an unusual arrangement for bands. Some bands pay a straight fee for performance.

Morrissey didn't tell him anything. He made Marr do it.

 

[Zoinks]

Morrissey didn't tell him anything. He made Marr do it.

Most likely this is true. But I've actually read the legal documents and it said Morrissey. Also it said Mike offered to manage the band to get an increased share and Morrissey turned him down.

In the court case, one of Mike's defenses was "I just assumed I was getting 25%" - this was a lie.

Also in an interview in about 2003, Marr said Joyce was coming after him for the share Morrissey refused to pay!

 

[vegan cro spirit 55]

LMW Mike as manager. Right. What a great idea. Driving to Leeds for a gig in Belgium.

 

[reelfountain]

Joyce was entitled to his fair share of group royalties that were denied to him. That's why he won the court case. If it were songwriting royalties, then fair enough, but it wasn't.

Why do some people have a problem with this?

Quite simply because the group's tasks were not distributed evenly. Morrissey got no payment for designing the record sleeves, and doing most of the interviews, for example. Marr got no payment for effectively managing the band. Rourke and Joyce showed up, played their instruments and buggered off. For Marr and Morrissey the Smiths was a full-time job with near-constant overtime. If anything, Marr should probably have been paid a bit more than Morrissey but there is no way in the world that the Rourke/Joyce should have been on the same pay as Marr/Morrissey. Just madness.

That's not the way it works with group loyalties, regardless of who does what or how much. The Smiths had four members, all of whom made up the special chemistry of the band's music. Songwriting royalties is another story and the real lion's share of the money. Group royalties are usually split equally and rightly so. As Moz and Marr were safe in the knowledge that they were receiving this lion's share, it shouldn't have been a problem offering 25% on group royalties. It was stinginess on Morrissey's part. As a vocalist and not a musician he may have taken Joyce and Rourke's playing for granted, which is a mistake. When a band has perfect musical chemistry it should be treasured, because it can be quite a rare thing. For example, I don't think any of Moz's bands since has achieved such perfection in this department.

 

[Zoinks]

LMW Mike as manager. Right. What a great idea. Driving to Leeds for a gig in Belgium.

Not to mention the recent Classically Smiths fiasco, which Johnny said he wasn't informed about - presumably Morrissey wasn't either.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

That's not the way it works with group loyalties, regardless of who does what or how much. The Smiths had four members, all of whom made up the special chemistry of the band's music. Songwriting royalties is another story and the real lion's share of the money. Group royalties are usually split equally and rightly so. As Moz and Marr were safe in the knowledge that they were receiving this lion's share, it shouldn't have been a problem offering 25% on group royalties. It was stinginess on Morrissey's part. As a vocalist and not a musician he may have taken Joyce and Rourke's playing for granted, which is a mistake. When a band has perfect musical chemistry it should be treasured, because it can be quite a rare thing. For example, I don't think any of Moz's bands since has achieved such perfection in this department.

.


Since when is a vocalist not a musician ?



Though I think its Mike who really should of just shut his trap and be grateful for having had the chance
to work with two artists Morrissey and Marr that had the vision and something new to offer the world.

Joyce may have 'won' in court, but he did not win.



CASE CLOSED !

 

[Anonymous]

That's not the way it works with group loyalties, regardless of who does what or how much. The Smiths had four members, all of whom made up the special chemistry of the band's music. Songwriting royalties is another story and the real lion's share of the money. Group royalties are usually split equally and rightly so. As Moz and Marr were safe in the knowledge that they were receiving this lion's share, it shouldn't have been a problem offering 25% on group royalties. It was stinginess on Morrissey's part. As a vocalist and not a musician he may have taken Joyce and Rourke's playing for granted, which is a mistake. When a band has perfect musical chemistry it should be treasured, because it can be quite a rare thing. For example, I don't think any of Moz's bands since has achieved such perfection in this department.

While I do agree that the Smiths had a wonderful chemistry, as a drummer, I can tell you that what Mike Joyce brought to the band, another dozen drummers in England at the time could have done the same thing.

As for Andy, I think he is more unique, however for the entire time he was in the band, he was a junkie. I have been in a band with a junkie and known others - their number one priority is to get heroin, not the band, not their job, loved ones, etc. Johnny Marr helped hide Andy's heroin addiction from Morrissey for years. I would not be surprised in the least if he covered for Andy in the studio. It was in a live situation where Andy's playing couldn't hack it, he was found out and Morrissey chucked him out of the band. Andy dropped the lawsuit because he knew he owed Johnny and he needed immediate cash.

The "ideal scenario" of this perfect band is an illusion that was dreamt up by Morrissey and Marr. It was never a band of equals. For Mike to sue after the fact was a disgrace. He knew the deal was 10%. The rancor he stirred up between Moz and Marr made sure they never got back together again. Hope it was worth it.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

That's not the way it works with group loyalties, regardless of who does what or how much. The Smiths had four members, all of whom made up the special chemistry of the band's music. Songwriting royalties is another story and the real lion's share of the money. Group royalties are usually split equally and rightly so. As Moz and Marr were safe in the knowledge that they were receiving this lion's share, it shouldn't have been a problem offering 25% on group royalties. It was stinginess on Morrissey's part. As a vocalist and not a musician he may have taken Joyce and Rourke's playing for granted, which is a mistake. When a band has perfect musical chemistry it should be treasured, because it can be quite a rare thing. For example, I don't think any of Moz's bands since has achieved such perfection in this department.

'When a band has perfect musical chemistry it should be treasured, because it can be quite a rare thing. For example, I don't think any of Moz's bands since has achieved such perfection in this department.'

It's subjective to compare the Smiths to Morrissey's bands.
But, was it really a 'perfect musical chemistry' in the Smiths? We really can't say, for we never heard Marr and Morrissey working with a different rhythm section as the Smiths.

 

[vegan cro spirit 88]

LMW Mike should have written some lyrics for "Bug", or any other DramaJ track and grab some royalties.
A couple of pence worth.

He got up at the Smiths conference to play and after 45 seconds he became all confused and had to give it up. Very poor technique by this particular Lawnmower. Incredible that he has been able to scam off peeps instead of having to get a job. Beelzebub must be looking over him.
Moz current drummer should give him some lessons.

 

[Anonymous]

While I do agree that the Smiths had a wonderful chemistry, as a drummer, I can tell you that what Mike Joyce brought to the band, another dozen drummers in England at the time could have done the same thing.

As for Andy, I think he is more unique, however for the entire time he was in the band, he was a junkie. I have been in a band with a junkie and known others - their number one priority is to get heroin, not the band, not their job, loved ones, etc. Johnny Marr helped hide Andy's heroin addiction from Morrissey for years. I would not be surprised in the least if he covered for Andy in the studio. It was in a live situation where Andy's playing couldn't hack it, he was found out and Morrissey chucked him out of the band. Andy dropped the lawsuit because he knew he owed Johnny and he needed immediate cash.

The "ideal scenario" of this perfect band is an illusion that was dreamt up by Morrissey and Marr. It was never a band of equals. For Mike to sue after the fact was a disgrace. He knew the deal was 10%. The rancor he stirred up between Moz and Marr made sure they never got back together again. Hope it was worth it.

So a dozen drummers could have done what Mike did? And so could a dozen do what Ringo did, or Rick Butler in The Jam or Mickey Finn on bongos in T Rex..... so what is your point? It was Mike who was the drummer from the first to the last gig and every gig in between and performed on every song that required a drum to be on it.

Andy didn't drop his case out of loyalty to Mike, he did it because he was desperate for cash and seeing as all sources of income via The Smiths was frozen until the court case - which would still be a few years away, Andy took a carrot that was dangled in front of him.

 

[Zoinks]

So a dozen drummers could have done what Mike did? And so could a dozen do what Ringo did, or Rick Butler in The Jam or Mickey Finn on bongos in T Rex..... so what is your point? It was Mike who was the drummer from the first to the last gig and every gig in between and performed on every song that required a drum to be on it.

Andy didn't drop his case out of loyalty to Mike, he did it because he was desperate for cash and seeing as all sources of income via The Smiths was frozen until the court case - which would still be a few years away, Andy took a carrot that was dangled in front of him.

Guess what - Mike Joyce was no Ringo Starr. Ringo was an innovator and was a personality in his own right. Completely different situation.

Rick Butler, probably. Mickey Finn definitely - he had the looks though.

 

[reelfountain]

There's definitely a certain magic that happens when the perfect line up is put together. You can hear it. The Jam had it. The Smiths had it. The Clash without Topper Headon didn't have it. The songs on the Clash's first album are great - but listen to the session player on drums. A perfectly brilliant player, but it's drums without magic - it's not a group that have grown into each others playing, it sounds like drums tacked on. Some can say that other drummers could have done what Joyce did - in a way that's true concerning ability, but there wouldn't be that same certain inexplicable magic to the ear without him. It couldn't have happened in the way it did without each of those four components (the members). It would have sounded like a different band. In bands players feed off each other in an audible way, influencing each other. Was Jah Wobble a vituoso bass player back in the day? No, but imagine PIL's first album without him. It's chemistry. You can't pin it down, but you can't deny it either. It's what makes a band sound good.

I didn't really mean that Moz wasn't a musician: I meant he wasn't an instrument player, so he might have taken the chemistry between the players and their instruments for granted. When Moz referred to Andy and Mike as 'Rick and Bruce' (from The Jam) it was intended as an insult, but it's actually high praise.

To be a member of the Smiths and be getting 10% of group royalties is ridiculous.