Peter Hook talks about The Smiths and Morrissey

You see, here's another chap who knows how to say blatantly contrary stuff, flying in the face of the majority opinion, to get a response. And I fell for it. Only a loon would say Sumner is a better guitarist, or riff-former or melody-maker than Marr.

P.

 

[Anonymous]

DC writes:

Estranged ex-New Order bassist, Peter Hook, talks about the rivalry with The Smiths and his former band. In an interview with Rock Cellar Magazine he offers his controversial opinion of Bernard Sumner (New Order's vocalist/guitarist) being a better writer/guitarist than Johnny Marr:

RCM: You’re also a big fan of Bernard’s guitar playing, correct?

PH: It amused me that he teamed up with Johnny Marr [in the alt-dance band Electronic] and he let Johnny Marr play guitar. I think he’s better than Johnny Marr!

RCM: You think he’s better than Johnny Marr?

PH: He is because he writes more memorable guitar lines. If you listen to Joy Division, and you listen to New Dawn Fades, Shadowplay – you hear fantastic, monumental guitar. Name me a great riff of Johnny Marr’s apart from How Soon Is Now? New Dawn Fades, Insight, Twenty Four Hours – now that’s f***ing great guitar work.

Later, Hook admits his admiration for The Smiths and for Morrissey's talent. He also tells a funny anecdote at Morrissey's expense:

RCM: What other Manchester bands do you appreciate?

PH: Funnily enough, I appreciate them all now – even The Smiths.

RCM: In your mind, are there any comparisons that can be drawn between Joy Division and The Smiths? Who’s better?!

PH: (laughs) They both make great music! To my mind, I found Joy Division’s music – not vocals – to be better than The Smiths’ music. But vocally, we’re on a par. Morrissey’s on a par with Ian, but in a completely different style and a completely different fashion.

We were in competition with The Smiths. There was a great rivalry between us, and once you get old enough to realize – it’s like jealousy. Jealousy is a very powerful emotion when you’re a kid, and it leads to a competitive attitude. But as you get older, you realize, who gives a f***? And all groups are in competition with each other.

RCM: Morrissey sort of kept a feud going?

PH: There was a lot of competition in the early days. Morrissey was very outspoken about Joy Division – which [manager] Rob Gretton hated. He really did f***ing hate Morrissey going on about Ian. And they had a wonderful, wonderful upset in the Hacienda, when Morrissey was mouthing off about Joy Division…

Rob Gretton said to him, “f***ing trouble with you Morrissey is that you don’t have the guts to kill yourself, like Ian!” Morrissey went f***ing mad! Morrissey went mad and stormed off! But, yeah, I’d just put it down to competition—and jealousy, probably.

RCM: All of this seems kind of ridiculous now, huh?

PH: Who cares? When you get to 56, you think, “Who gives a f***?” Really, does anybody give a f***? They’re both fantastic groups; they both put Manchester on the map; they’re both full of wonderful, wonderful musicians who have created a niche in the world.

If The Smiths came back now, they would f***ing cream the world! New Order came back; they’ve done really, really well. But it wouldn’t be like The Smiths coming back.

 

[This charming man.]

What a load of cack. Another example of Hooky's ever increasing ego. Sumner a better guitarist than Marr.

 

[Anonymous]

Rob Gretton said to him, “f***ing trouble with you Morrissey is that you don’t have the guts to kill yourself, like Ian!”

He has a point.

Morrissey went f***ing mad! Morrissey went mad and stormed off!

How very true to form. Instead of standing his ground and actually confronting people, he runs away. Typical.

 

[Johnny Barleycorn]

I could have sworn Manchester was on the map before either Joy Division or the Smiths.

Sounds like 'Ooky might be trying to build bridges with Bernard. I always found it was Hook's bass that dragged me into most New Order tracks rather than anything else. As for Sumner it is true he carried on making great albums with New Order long after Marr gave up music to record with Bryan Ferry et al.

Marr wasted his talent for a quarter of a century. I think it's fair to say the last music he made which matched his monumental reputation was on Strangeways, one of the very albums which forged it in the first place.

 

[Mozmanc]

the guy is a sellout and a twat

he's always telling that morrissey story to anybody who will listen, has he got another nostalgic book to sell

 

[fan afraid]

I agree with Hook - to a point. I play guitar and in my opinion Sumner's guitar playing on the Joy Division records is unbelievable. The real tragedy (other than Ian C dying) is that Sumner put his guitar aside to take over on vocal duties. I'm a massive Smiths fan but Marr's guitar work became less interesting/revolutionary after Meat is Murder. He was a virtuoso before then but concentrated more on the songwriting from TQID. Regardless, both of these guys have made a significant contribution to music and are as important as the likes of Clapton, Beck, Page and Harrison.

 

[Anonymous]

You are right about one thing Pete. We don't give a f***...

- marred.

 

[Anonymous]

On the basis of more memorable guitar lines he is right. Every New Order record is good and different and Bernard Sumner is a big part of it. I think Bernard Sumner is a much more open person as an artist also and definitely overall a much bigger talent. That's obvious. So it depends on what you mean when you're comparing two guitarists which is usually a waste of time anyway. It's just his opinion and he probably is trying to get back in New Order which would be fantastic so let's not spoil it.

Besides that his talent on bass is difficult to overstate. He is a huge part of the reason that Sumner's lines worked and were free to be simple, repetitive and hypnotic. Hook is a legend and is entitled to his opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

Just because something is catchier or more memorable don't make it better. There are a million shitty catchy riffs by a million shitty bands that are earworms that people wish they could rid themselves of. Bernard is a hacky guitarist at best; he made a couple of catchy riffs in a couple of Joy Division songs, but every other Joy Division hook was the keyboard, drums, bass lines after that.

Johnny's may not be as surface level catchy, but his are deeper and fuller and mean more. The brain perceives the simplest melodies and chord changes as the catchiest. You know why children's songs and christmas songs are so memorable? It's because they are simple. Simple doesn't = better.

 

[Justin Playfair]

I'd love to see Bernard Sumner hire Andy Rourke to become New Order's bassist just to stick it to Hooky.

 

[Peterb]

Just because something is catchier or more memorable don't make it better. There are a million shitty catchy riffs by a million shitty bands that are earworms that people wish they could rid themselves of. Bernard is a hacky guitarist at best; he made a couple of catchy riffs in a couple of Joy Division songs, but every other Joy Division hook was the keyboard, drums, bass lines after that.

Johnny's may not be as surface level catchy, but his are deeper and fuller and mean more. The brain perceives the simplest melodies and chord changes as the catchiest. You know why children's songs and christmas songs are so memorable? It's because they are simple. Simple doesn't = better.

I must disagree, the greatest riffs are the simplest. Indeed it is much harder to write a simple catchy riff than something overblown and complicated.

 

[Ben Budd]

Jesse Tobias is better than both of them.

 

[Anonymous]

Jesse Tobias is better than both of them.

Jesse Tobias' understudy's retarded brother is better than all three of them.

 

[Bonadrag]

 

[JJKelsall]

I must disagree, the greatest riffs are the simplest. Indeed it is much harder to write a simple catchy riff than something overblown and complicated.

The problem with simple melodies is that they tend to tire a lot easily than something more complicated. Having said that, overblown, complicated music can be too abstract to enjoy, but Marr's playing was never really overblown either. The best kind of riffs I would say are the subtle ones that seem rather unremarkable at first, but as you listen you find a lot of depth and richness in them. That is the kind of music that endures, at least to my ears anyway.

 

[Anonymous]

I must disagree, the greatest riffs are the simplest. Indeed it is much harder to write a simple catchy riff than something overblown and complicated.

You can disagree all you like but you're still wrong

- marred.

 

[Anonymous]

How can you compare Barney who collaborated with the rest of the band to write music to Marr who wrote all of The Smiths music.

 

[Anonymous]

I was addicted to guitar magazines for years and a recurring debate was always technique vs feeling. Is Kurt Cobain a better guitarist than Eddie Van Halen? Depends who you ask. Maybe it helps to look at a different genre of music though. Johnny Marr is Eddie Van Halen and Bernard Sumner is Kurt Cobain.

 

[Anonymous]

How can you compare Barney who collaborated with the rest of the band to write music to Marr who wrote all of The Smiths music.

Except the vocal melodies and the basslines - Marr would just like people to think he wrote all the music. Truth is he has never come close to achieving with others, or on his own, what he achieved through musical collaboration with Morrissey and Rourke - you only need to listen to his new album to realise that.