Strange/unexpected Moz references?

joe frady

Vile Refusenik
í was forensically studying the Davalos cover and comparing hairlines, foreheads and nostril shadows, at 3am {god help me}, and decided ~ No Dick. It must just be Stephen's wrinkles. Apologies for getting excited.

If you do not find that letter, you shall be severely spanked with a wet plimsoll...

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Believe me, I was doing the same this morning until I remembered that there were more pictures Vini Reilly took of our guitar heroes. I also found the clip of Moz wearing the Strangeways shirt (at ~ 1:43).

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Aaaand you can put your plimsols in the dryer because I found the letter. 😜

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MlettertoStreet2.jpg


Edit: the complete Viva Hate Songbook, as posted on Street's old website, can be accessed here:


(Flash Player required - do not attempt on mobile, it's a pain in the arse)
 
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joe frady

Vile Refusenik
Believe me, I was doing the same this morning until I remembered that there were more pictures Vini Reilly took of our guitar heroes. I also found the clip of Moz wearing the Strangeways shirt (at ~ 1:43).

View attachment 59153



Aaaand you can put your plimsols in the dryer because I found the letter. 😜

View attachment 59151 View attachment 59152

Edit: the complete Viva Hate Songbook, as posted on Street's old website, can be accessed here:


(Flash Player required - do not attempt on mobile, it's a pain in the arse)

Thank You.

Fascinating.

"Every situation of course would be very clear before any movement occurs " ~ what a delightfully odd thing to say.

So less than 3 weeks after the "NME " hits the stands, it's over. You can sense a certain desperation between the lines. And the heartless hand of EMI on the shoulder. But not on Johnny's back í'm sure.

Poor sod. Wishing someone well after their new dawn honeymoon, his pop world asunder, sitting in his widow's weeds...

.
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><>
Thank You.

Fascinating.

"Every situation of course would be very clear before any movement occurs " ~ what a delightfully odd thing to say.

So less than 3 weeks after the "NME " hits the stands, it's over. You can sense a certain desperation between the lines. And the heartless hand of EMI on the shoulder. But not on Johnny's back í'm sure.

Poor sod. Wishing someone well after their new dawn honeymoon, his pop world asunder, sitting in his widow's weeds...

.

Morrissey moved fast. And wanted Smiths laid to rest, seems forever.

We usually get the picture of Morrissey being incapacitated and heart broken by Marr’s split. But closer to the truth we see Morrissey not depressed, full of hope and motivated to move on and succeed.

Thoughts?
 

Nerak

Reverse Ferret
Morrissey moved fast. And wanted Smiths laid to rest, seems forever.

We usually get the picture of Morrissey being incapacitated and heart broken by Marr’s split. But closer to the truth we see Morrissey not depressed, full of hope and motivated to move on and succeed.

Thoughts?

He's definitely trying to win him over - flattery & positivity... until it gets a bit much for him & he throws in that he's being deliberately ignored. Join me in unjust disgrace. Wee scone.
 

joe frady

Vile Refusenik
Morrissey moved fast. And wanted Smiths laid to rest, seems forever.

We usually get the picture of Morrissey being incapacitated and heart broken by Marr’s split. But closer to the truth we see Morrissey not depressed, full of hope and motivated to move on and succeed.

Thoughts?

í think M. is stronger and more rigourous than generally considered, given his lyrical concerns. Three parts "Irish defiance", working class work ethic {fear of poverty} and contrarian bugger {he likes being the salt in the wound of Pop}. Plus more than a dash of EMI bully boys.

You only have to skim "Autobiography" to be awed at how he "got himself out of the situation he was in". From Queen's Square to Sweetzer Avenue is a journey that could only be achieved by a certain type of character, and probably only at a specific point in this country's history. That Pop pathway, open to poor Irish immigrants such as McCartney, Morrissey and Lydon is now walled up, accessible only in that brief blip in time when Pop really mattered.

In August 1987 í think Morrissey knew that if he didn't keep moving he would die. He had to get out of another situation. Yes, there was alot of Hate in the air. But also "Viva" ~ 'to live'.

Plus, maybe he was on good meds, that week...

.
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><>
...
í think M. is stronger and more rigourous than generally considered, given his lyrical concerns. Three parts "Irish defiance", working class work ethic {fear of poverty} and contrarian bugger {he likes being the salt in the wound of Pop}. Plus more than a dash of EMI bully boys.

You only have to skim "Autobiography" to be awed at how he "got himself out of the situation he was in". From Queen's Square to Sweetzer Avenue is a journey that could only be achieved by a certain type of character, and probably only at a specific point in this country's history. That Pop pathway, open to poor Irish immigrants such as McCartney, Morrissey and Lydon is now walled up, accessible only in that brief blip in time when Pop really mattered.

In August 1987 í think Morrissey knew that if he didn't keep moving he would die. He had to get out of another situation. Yes, there was alot of Hate in the air. But also "Viva" ~ 'to live'.

Plus, maybe he was on good meds, that week...

.

I think his motivation and success so soon after the Smiths break up just proves that even if Marr never knocked on his door he would have eventually been a successful singer or writer, he knew he had a unique vision, and obviously the drive to do something great.

If he stayed in Manchester I’m sure he would have found someone good enough to make his mark in music history, maybe with Vini.

Or he would have pursued journalism, eventually moving to London, and then there find the right musician to write with.

I’m just saying, I don’t buy the Morrissey needed Marr as much as Marr needed Morrissey to succeed line.

Under his bedridden and criminally shy ways, he knew he had what it takes and obviously he’s always had the ambition and the drive.
 
í think M. is stronger and more rigourous than generally considered, given his lyrical concerns. Three parts "Irish defiance", working class work ethic {fear of poverty} and contrarian bugger {he likes being the salt in the wound of Pop}. Plus more than a dash of EMI bully boys.

You only have to skim "Autobiography" to be awed at how he "got himself out of the situation he was in". From Queen's Square to Sweetzer Avenue is a journey that could only be achieved by a certain type of character, and probably only at a specific point in this country's history. That Pop pathway, open to poor Irish immigrants such as McCartney, Morrissey and Lydon is now walled up, accessible only in that brief blip in time when Pop really mattered.

In August 1987 í think Morrissey knew that if he didn't keep moving he would die. He had to get out of another situation. Yes, there was alot of Hate in the air. But also "Viva" ~ 'to live'.

Plus, maybe he was on good meds, that week...

.

I think immediately after the catastrophic final b-sides sessions (late May 1987), when Johnny had left to LA and it must have dawned on Morrissey that things weren't working out anymore, he really was in a very bad state. I don't believe that Grant Showbiz was exaggerating when he said that he felt it was necessary to spend the night at Morrissey's flat to look after him because he'd never seen him so upset and he "wasn’t so much crying as physically swooning."
But I also think that at some point M managed to channel those strong feelings and "hate "can be a very powerful driving force.

Very much agree with this part "In August 1987 í think Morrissey knew that if he didn't keep moving he would die. He had to get out of another situation."

He once said that he always has to keep moving and I think that's something that still applies. Even if he's moving in weird directions, he doesn't seem to stand still. Irish defiance indeed.

A small thing that's been bugging me for some time is this tiny detail from Rogan’s revised edition of "The Sausage Appliance". Were the documents backdated or was it really "officially"/unofficially over before June 1987? Johnny was still gushing about M on KROQ, 28 May 1987. "He's brilliant, he's marvellous. I miss him. I haven't seen him for a week and I really miss him."

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joe frady

Vile Refusenik
I think immediately after the catastrophic final b-sides sessions (late May 1987), when Johnny had left to LA and it must have dawned on Morrissey that things weren't working out anymore, he really was in a very bad state. I don't believe that Grant Showbiz was exaggerating when he said that he felt it was necessary to spend the night at Morrissey's flat to look after him because he'd never seen him so upset and he "wasn’t so much crying as physically swooning."
But I also think that at some point M managed to channel those strong feelings and "hate "can be a very powerful driving force.

Very much agree with this part "In August 1987 í think Morrissey knew that if he didn't keep moving he would die. He had to get out of another situation."

He once said that he always has to keep moving and I think that's something that still applies. Even if he's moving in weird directions, he doesn't seem to stand still. Irish defiance indeed.

A small thing that's been bugging me for some time is this tiny detail from Rogan’s revised edition of "The Sausage Appliance". Were the documents backdated or was it really "officially"/unofficially over before June 1987? Johnny was still gushing about M on KROQ, 28 May 1987. "He's brilliant, he's marvellous. I miss him. I haven't seen him for a week and I really miss him."

View attachment 59164

Was Cilla really that hellish..?

Looking back at it now, speaking from (i) a normal psychological perspective, (ii) the foreign Pop lands of 2020, (iii) not as a hot-ass Pop Star, (iv) not as someone raised in the immigrant poverty of Morrissey & Marr, of course we would say 'they should have just gone to a Butlins for a month or two {separately}, drunk some cider, kissed a quickie and come back fresh'.

But them were strange days with strange ways: (i) Morrissey is {duh!} a complex chummy, unfathomable to most, even himself. (ii) The 1980s was a tribal war zone in Pop; one had to, by law, take sides, and 1987 was arguably the point at which the indie wave crested, broke and rolled back on itself. (iii) The Smiths were atop that crest. And the pressures on that sleek Smiths skiff, tossed about by the roiling Pop seascape of 1987, are unimaginable, í would imagine, to those not onboard. (iv) To have the ability to handle all this with ease, only 4 years into your existence as a Pop Star, having come from the background M & M were born into, would have been a minor miracle. If only they'd been to Brits School, they could have been as great as Ed Sheeran.

Frankly, it's a miracle they made it even thus far.

í think a similar situation developed around 1990, when Morrissey was approaching a stasis of some kind, in his mind {personally í loved all that era to death, but that's as likely coloured by the first flush of falling, as after a year or so of swooning & swithering, í took the plunge in '90}. After waiting for a couple of years for Johnny's call that never came, he pled Guilty, laced up his DMs, threw on his best diaphanous blouse, and moved forward.

As for the Rogan thing, he does tend to unearth tiny gobbets of small print marginalia and come on all Moses-like {he has got the beard?} and present them as gleaming tablets of utter fact.
í don't know about that particular Rogan bug, but it could have been that that particular M/M legal partnership ended on 31st of May, prior to another partnership being established, ready and set for the Glory Days of The Smiths Imperial EMI Phase. M'lud..?

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Was Cilla really that hellish..?

Well, poor Cilla seems to have been the last straw. Johnny didn't want to be there at all, while Morrissey "took some strange pills", even intimidating people with his aggressive behaviour. Apparently it was "a very spooky, very scary time".
Perhaps they should have stuck with the Elvis cover instead?

"Now and then there's a fool such as I
Pardon me, if I'm sentimental
When we say goodbye
Don't be angry with me should I cry
When you're gone, yet I'll dream
A little dream as years go by

Now and then there's a fool such as I am over you
You taught me how to love
And now you say that we are through
I'm a fool, but I'll love you dear
Until the day I die"


í think a similar situation developed around 1990, when Morrissey was approaching a stasis of some kind, in his mind {personally í loved all that era to death, but that's as likely coloured by the first flush of falling, as after a year or so of swooning & swithering, í took the plunge in '90}. After waiting for a couple of years for Johnny's call that never came, he pled Guilty, laced up his DMs, threw on his best diaphanous blouse, and moved forward.

Even in his first radio interview he did as a solo artist for KROQ in 1990 he still said he'd get back together with Johnny immediately if he asked him to. And yes, I agree, his appearance on Jonathan Ross sort of marked a new beginning but at the same time it seems like a final plea for reconciliation. A powerful moment anyway.
There's a number of dramatic key events in his career and in most cases he came out of them stronger (at least artistically) in my opinion.


As for the Rogan thing, he does tend to unearth tiny gobbets of small print marginalia and come on all Moses-like {he has got the beard?} and present them as gleaming tablets of utter fact.
í don't know about that particular Rogan bug, but it could have been that that particular M/M legal partnership ended on 31st of May, prior to another partnership being established, ready and set for the Glory Days of The Smiths Imperial EMI Phase. M'lud..?

.

It just struck me as odd that he mentioned this in passing while he spent what felt like decades dissecting marginal minutiae in other places.

How did Johnny manage to escape EMI's grab anyway? After all, they were quite happy to have "two acts for the price of one"...?
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
Morrissey moved fast. And wanted Smiths laid to rest, seems forever.

We usually get the picture of Morrissey being incapacitated and heart broken by Marr’s split. But closer to the truth we see Morrissey not depressed, full of hope and motivated to move on and succeed.

Thoughts?

He has described the pressure he felt from EMI at that time, and how he thought it was 'too early' but his hands were tied. I'm sure that comes into it.
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><>
He has described the pressure he felt from EMI at that time, and how he thought it was 'too early' but his hands were tied. I'm sure that comes into it.

Yeah, it’s amazing. With the usual picture of Morrissey that’s painted even by him, one would think that he would have gone into a deep depression, crumbled up or just be stubborn, aloof and just refuse to do anything because of these pressures from EMI, gladly slinking back into obscurity.

But, that wasn’t the case. And he had the drive to succeed even right after the so-called ‘catastrophe’ of the Smiths break up. My point is, he always had that drive, even if Marr never showed up, he would have eventually made his mark as a writer or writer/singer.
 

Nerak

Reverse Ferret
The absolute STATE of these people - their favourite feminist billionaire gets dragged for unprogressive opinions & it's all UK hacks on deck.... even dredging up the fatwa (which is exactly what Moz has been moaning about - religious tyranny getting a free pass for squeamish political reasons).

Catherine Bennett in today's Observer:

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This is a case of Moz not being referenced when he should be.

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Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
Yeah, it’s amazing. With the usual picture of Morrissey that’s painted even by him, one would think that he would have gone into a deep depression, crumbled up or just be stubborn, aloof and just refuse to do anything because of these pressures from EMI, gladly slinking back into obscurity.

But, that wasn’t the case. And he had the drive to succeed even right after the so-called ‘catastrophe’ of the Smiths break up. My point is, he always had that drive, even if Marr never showed up, he would have eventually made his mark as a writer or writer/singer.

All that anger and misery had to go somewhere, seems natural he would channel it into an album. I see VH as a Smiths break-up album and it's a great one. Totally disagree that he would have made it alone, though. :guitar:
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><>
All that anger and misery had to go somewhere, seems natural he would channel it into an album. I see VH as a Smiths break-up album and it's a great one. Totally disagree that he would have made it alone, though.

His drive is so strong that eventually he would have made it alone as a writer or would have eventually found
someone to write music with.

And his determination and success so soon after the split points to the truth of this.

Marr and Morrissey were needed to make The Smiths, but Marr was not needed to make Morrissey what he always was and forever will be.

:cool:
 

joe frady

Vile Refusenik
Even in his first radio interview he did as a solo artist for KROQ in 1990 he still said he'd get back together with Johnny immediately if he asked him to. And yes, I agree, his appearance on Jonathan Ross sort of marked a new beginning but at the same time it seems like a final plea for reconciliation. A powerful moment anyway.
There's a number of dramatic key events in his career and in most cases he came out of them stronger (at least artistically) in my opinion.

In November '89 he told Nick Kent he'd be on the first Bowdon dial-a-bus round to Johnny's, if the telephone rang, KROQ in Feb similar.
In those last 9 months of 1990 you can sense the gestation of the final death of The Smiths.
So, yes, that unannounced Monday tea-time telly appearance on Channel Four in December, pleading Guilty, marked the end of a thing; it also marked the beginning of my 'thing' with Moz. Watching in the Winter gloom of my front room, í knew then that í was in deep, for the long haul. And here we all are, now.


It just struck me as odd that he mentioned this in passing while he spent what felt like decades dissecting marginal minutiae in other places.

How did Johnny manage to escape EMI's grab anyway? After all, they were quite happy to have "two acts for the price of one"...?

Well, obviously, EMI, those fools, had not yet realised that they had the sublime lyricist and world class vocalist that would later emerge for our delectation, decades later...

.
 

Surface

Vegan Cro’s parents regret the condom splitting
His drive is so strong that eventually he would have made it alone as a writer or would have eventually found
someone to write music with.

And his determination and success so soon after the split points to the truth of this.

Marr and Morrissey were needed to make The Smiths, but Marr was not needed to make Morrissey what he always was and forever will be.

:cool:

Your point on his determination and success so soon after the split is nonsense, he was always going to succeed after The Smiths as they had built up a huge fan base by then. If he hadn't met Johnny he still may have carved out a career in music but I don't think it would have been anywhere as successful as it has.
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><>
Your point on his determination and success so soon after the split is nonsense, he was always going to succeed after The Smiths as they had built up a huge fan base by then. If he hadn't met Johnny he still may have carved out a career in music but I don't think it would have been anywhere as successful as it has.

Yes, as I said, he had the drive to succeed regardless of meeting Marr or not. AND I never said how successful he would have been without The Smiths.



But, it is interesting though. If his solo success depended so much on the Smiths fan base (as you say) then why didn’t the other members profit from that Smiths fan base also?


Thank you for proving my point.


:tiphat:
 
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