The Decemberists' Colin Meloy on the trouble with being a Morrissey fan - NME

The Decemberists on life in Trump’s America, and the trouble with being a Morrissey fan - NME

Excerpt:

Meanwhile, we also asked Meloy about his current feelings on Morrissey. For his debut solo outing in 2005, he recorded six covers for the EP ‘Colin Meloy Sings Morrissey’. However, the frontman admitted that his fandom didn’t stretch as far as the former Smiths‘ singer’s recent work – or his string of controversial comments.

“I’m still absolutely invested, in a certain era of his work,” Meloy told NME. “I thought there was a lot of great stuff on the 2004 record ‘You Are The Quarry’. To me that was a return to form because I had ‘Maladjusted’ and ‘South Paw Grammar’. I had kind of fallen away. My thing with Morrissey is I that I just wish he had different songwriting partners. I feel like his guitar wall, arena rock thing it just doesn’t work. During the era of ‘Bona Drag’ and ‘Kill Uncle’, there was a lot of really weird, interesting decisions being made. And also he’s a terrible person!”

Asked if he was able to celebrate an individual’s art from their views, Meloy replied: “I think with Morrissey you’re primed for that. It was no secret that he was a terrible person, I think going way back. Even as a teenager. He’s nobody that you want to spend that much time with. He’s the one hero of mine who I haven’t met who I think I’m OK with not ever having met. But I think that’s sort of something that we have to grapple with.

“Like with Woody Allen, ‘Crimes And Misdemeanours’ is one of my favourite movies of all time. But how do you divorce that from the guy who made it who is sort of a sociopath? We’re kind of figuring it out as it goes along. It’s awful.”
 
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0

001

Guest
The Decemberists on life in Trump’s America, and the trouble with being a Morrissey fan - NME

Excerpt:

Meanwhile, we also asked Meloy about his current feelings on Morrissey. For his debut solo outing in 2005, he recorded six covers for the EP ‘Colin Meloy Sings Morrissey’. However, the frontman admitted that his fandom didn’t stretch as far as the former Smiths‘ singer’s recent work – or his string of controversial comments.

“I’m still absolutely invested, in a certain era of his work,” Meloy told NME. “I thought there was a lot of great stuff on the 2004 record ‘You Are The Quarry’. To me that was a return to form because I had ‘Maladjusted’ and ‘South Paw Grammar’. I had kind of fallen away. My thing with Morrissey is I that I just wish he had different songwriting partners. I feel like his guitar wall, arena rock thing it just doesn’t work. During the era of ‘Bona Drag’ and ‘Kill Uncle’, there was a lot of really weird, interesting decisions being made. And also he’s a terrible person!”

Asked if he was able to celebrate an individual’s art from their views, Meloy replied: “I think with Morrissey you’re primed for that. It was no secret that he was a terrible person, I think going way back. Even as a teenager. He’s nobody that you want to spend that much time with. He’s the one hero of mine who I haven’t met who I think I’m OK with not ever having met. But I think that’s sort of something that we have to grapple with.

“Like with Woody Allen, ‘Crimes And Misdemeanours’ is one of my favourite movies of all time. But how do you divorce that from the guy who made it who is sort of a sociopath? We’re kind of figuring it out as it goes along. It’s awful.”

@ Colin Meloy How the f*** can you compare Morrissey with Woody Allen? You absolute dick!
 

g23

Always crashing in the same car
"My thing with Morrissey is I that I just wish he had different songwriting partners. I feel like his guitar wall, arena rock thing it just doesn’t work".

This Is EVERYTHING.

The advent of the Jesse Tobias era (error) has been an enormous musical mistake by Morrissey. A shockingly bad person to have as a collaborator and guitarist. Things won't improve at all as long as Jesse Tobias is hanging around.
Jesse Tobias was too shitty for the RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS. Let that sink in a minute.
 
T

Truth

Guest
I've expressed my opinion on the matter umpteen times on this site in the past, so it seems a little boring to go back into it now. But I will if you insist. I don't mind people being offended by Morrissey's comments. That doesn't bother me. What does is ex-fans. People who are suddenly dismayed at the 'shocking tone' of his comments in recent years - as if he has suddenly changed. Suddenly become a bad person. Morrissey has always expressed so-called controversial opinions, but in recent times there's been a full Stalinist crackdown on saying anything even remotely interesting or off-kilter - a kind of mass brainwashing by the media and its sheep that even a moron should realise is not in our best interests. It's about power and control - and this Decembrist guy and many of his sanctimonious ilk are wholeheartedly trapped in its net. Take Martin Rossiter from Gene as another fine example. Moz's own one-time karaoke double. He also has had a full on hate conversion to the grand Mozmaster... and because of what? Moz saying mass immigration can be damaging? Bullshit. How come Moz's 'racist' or 'hateful' comments in the 80s didn't bother him - and as we all know, there were plenty of them to choose from. Some people blindly follow fashion, some don't. I consider myself in the latter category.

I always wonder what you people are upset about. You can still say anything you want to. What "interesting" things do you want to say?
Do you think power and control or the desire to have power and control are a new thing or that it's exclusive to some group to which you feel you don't belong to? For a very long time there was power and control for straight white men to rape women and have the woman be blamed for it, or to call black people niggers or call gay people f*****s, and it was accepted as the way things are. That's what all that snowflake bullshit is about. It's people who think being white, Christian, and heterosexual is the default position. Sure they can "accept" other people and even call themselves "liberal" but they want a award for doing it. That's the problem with Hillary Clinton who was against marriage equality for decades and then suddenly realized that train had left the station without her and did her best to hop on it. That's why we have Trump for a President.
But I'm getting off track. What is it you want to say that the snowflakes won't allow? You want to blame children for being molested and women for being raped? You can do that and someone might tell you that you're a terrible person. They'll be correct.
f*** Morrisey and his bullshit. He's the "snowflake." He said that shit. He denied. The tapes showed he did say it. He still wants to be the victim? f*** that.
 

dotmatrix522

Hey, how’s it going?
"My thing with Morrissey is I that I just wish he had different songwriting partners. I feel like his guitar wall, arena rock thing it just doesn’t work".

This Is EVERYTHING.

The advent of the Jesse Tobias era (error) has been an enormous musical mistake by Morrissey. A shockingly bad person to have as a collaborator and guitarist. Things won't improve at all as long as Jesse Tobias is hanging around.

I get that Moz has had a heavier sound since 2004 and his addition of a keyboard player to his band, but I genuinely disagree that either WPINOYB or LIHS can be called “arena rock.” Ok, “My Love...” is pretty hard rock, but that song is an outlier. I personally have no problem with and do enjoy his current band and songwriters... I know I’m in the minority by saying that!
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
I always wonder what you people are upset about. You can still say anything you want to. What "interesting" things do you want to say?
Do you think power and control or the desire to have power and control are a new thing or that it's exclusive to some group to which you feel you don't belong to? For a very long time there was power and control for straight white men to rape women and have the woman be blamed for it, or to call black people niggers or call gay people f*****s, and it was accepted as the way things are. That's what all that snowflake bullshit is about. It's people who think being white, Christian, and heterosexual is the default position. Sure they can "accept" other people and even call themselves "liberal" but they want a award for doing it. That's the problem with Hillary Clinton who was against marriage equality for decades and then suddenly realized that train had left the station without her and did her best to hop on it. That's why we have Trump for a President.
But I'm getting off track. What is it you want to say that the snowflakes won't allow? You want to blame children for being molested and women for being raped? You can do that and someone might tell you that you're a terrible person. They'll be correct.
f*** Morrisey and his bullshit. He's the "snowflake." He said that shit. He denied. The tapes showed he did say it. He still wants to be the victim? f*** that.

If we are considering the wrongdoing of emitting some opinions and statements here, it's as wrong and injuring: 1) blaming "children for being molested and women for being raped", as you say Morrissey did, as 2) putting: a)Morrissey commenting other people's conducts and b)Woody Allen acting as a pedophile; both on the same level, just as the Decemberist does in this interview. The curious thing is that few people seem to notice the difference of treatment and the injustice of insulting Morrissey in this hideous way. Imagine if Morrissey had done the same thing.
Anyway, at the time I read "white men" in your post I should have stopped reading it, since women always were raped by men of all skin tones and religions and still are, and the same happens with people (women and men of all skin tones, sexual orientations and religions) using their power and money to use and submit another people. (North)America is not the world, but even if you think so, that is not the contemporary reality, and it was so for a relatively short historical period of time. Just check where the real money and power resides now, as where the more opressive governments, cultures and religions are, and you will understand that you are spotting very badly your target.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The Decemberists have pretty much taken over as my favourite band. At least, favourite active band. I usually find Meloy to be pretty level headed and I think he is here ... he's voicing what I think a lot of people grapple with. There are so many people who shit all over Morrissey on this website over and over and who just will not go away. They won't admit it, but they have this grapple too where they get agitated by him, but they love him too. I'm the same, although I'm probably not agitated as much as a lot here .. I can mostly tune it out as white noise and enjoy the bits I do like. Meloy would be the same, he only recently got a 'Moz' tattoo so he holds a fair bit of love.

I think you have to distinguish between remaining interested, and being in love.

Sometimes you just stick around to see how the story ends.
 
T

Truth

Guest
Several of you believe that Morrissey is being "compared to Woody Allen" in this interview but let's look at that. Here is the section about woody Allen.
“Like with Woody Allen, ‘Crimes And Misdemeanours’ is one of my favourite movies of all time. But how do you divorce that from the guy who made it who is sort of a sociopath? We’re kind of figuring it out as it goes along. It’s awful.”
This is not comparing Morrissey to Woody Allen. This is also not saying Morrissey is a sociopath. It is saying that Woody Allen is "sort of a sociopath," but that one of his films is one of Colin Meloy's favorites. He's asking how do we separate our admiration or affection for the work with our feelings about the behavior of the person who created it.
Yes, countthree, you're right that I'm based in North America and I do tend to see the world through a different perspective than you do. I appreciate that argument. I'm not sure where you believe the real bigotry and discrimination are centered now. I imagine it's the Muslim world. But it's not the Muslims who are talking about "snowflakes." Those are young, mostly white people who are tired of hearing the "SJW's" talking about being offended. Who do you think was offended by Morrissey's remarks in that interview?
Someone else said that what they don't like is people being offended all of a sudden as if Morrissey hadn't made problematic remarks since the very beginning. This is an excellent point. When he talked about immigration it didn't bother me or lots of other listeners that much because we're not immigrants I guess. So if you want to find fault with people criticizing Morrissey you could ask why all of a sudden? But that doesn't really absolve Morrissey. Doesn't it just mean that he's always been a terrible person? Is it hypocrisy to have ignored it until he was actually making explicit statements blaming the victims of sexual assault? Maybe. I'm not sure that's really relevant though.
The point is that a careful reading of the interview only says that when you listen to Morrissey's records you might have a different and better experience if you don't think about the things he might say to a reporter on a day when he's trying to be provocative and get some headlines. It is true that saying something and doing something are different and we don't even know if Morrissey believes in what he said in those interviews. Trolls often do not believe the things they are saying but have simply calculated how to get the most reaction and upset the most people. Maybe Colin Meloy doesn't realize Morrissey is a troll who craves negative attention. Is that preferable to calling him a terrible person? I think it's more accurate.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I've expressed my opinion on the matter umpteen times on this site in the past, so it seems a little boring to go back into it now. But I will if you insist. I don't mind people being offended by Morrissey's comments. That doesn't bother me. What does is ex-fans. People who are suddenly dismayed at the 'shocking tone' of his comments in recent years - as if he has suddenly changed. Suddenly become a bad person. Morrissey has always expressed so-called controversial opinions, but in recent times there's been a full Stalinist crackdown on saying anything even remotely interesting or off-kilter - a kind of mass brainwashing by the media and its sheep that even a moron should realise is not in our best interests. It's about power and control - and this Decembrist guy and many of his sanctimonious ilk are wholeheartedly trapped in its net. Take Martin Rossiter from Gene as another fine example. Moz's own one-time karaoke double. He also has had a full on hate conversion to the grand Mozmaster... and because of what? Moz saying mass immigration can be damaging? Bullshit. How come Moz's 'racist' or 'hateful' comments in the 80s didn't bother him - and as we all know, there were plenty of them to choose from. Some people blindly follow fashion, some don't. I consider myself in the latter category.
Stalinist crackdown? You can't be serious? Of course, you're not. So, let's get serious.

Morrissey is allowed to say whatever he wants, and people are allowed to reject him over it. If this was a Stalinist crackdown, Morrissey would be dead; yet he still keeps making ignorant statements while earning a living, and has deposed of people for less than what he's been criticized for.

So, in summary: Physician, heal thyself!

The reality is this: It's not enough for Morrissey, and his defenders to be heard, they want to be accepted, and even supported. No one owes you that, and if you want it, then you have to earn it. Otherwise, get the thumb out of our mouth, and let go of your imaginary victimhood. It's not a good look.

There are real victims on this planet. You and Morrissey are not one of them.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Several of you believe that Morrissey is being "compared to Woody Allen" in this interview but let's look at that. Here is the section about woody Allen.
“Like with Woody Allen, ‘Crimes And Misdemeanours’ is one of my favourite movies of all time. But how do you divorce that from the guy who made it who is sort of a sociopath? We’re kind of figuring it out as it goes along. It’s awful.”
This is not comparing Morrissey to Woody Allen. This is also not saying Morrissey is a sociopath. It is saying that Woody Allen is "sort of a sociopath," but that one of his films is one of Colin Meloy's favorites. He's asking how do we separate our admiration or affection for the work with our feelings about the behavior of the person who created it.
Yes, countthree, you're right that I'm based in North America and I do tend to see the world through a different perspective than you do. I appreciate that argument. I'm not sure where you believe the real bigotry and discrimination are centered now. I imagine it's the Muslim world. But it's not the Muslims who are talking about "snowflakes." Those are young, mostly white people who are tired of hearing the "SJW's" talking about being offended. Who do you think was offended by Morrissey's remarks in that interview?
Someone else said that what they don't like is people being offended all of a sudden as if Morrissey hadn't made problematic remarks since the very beginning. This is an excellent point. When he talked about immigration it didn't bother me or lots of other listeners that much because we're not immigrants I guess. So if you want to find fault with people criticizing Morrissey you could ask why all of a sudden? But that doesn't really absolve Morrissey. Doesn't it just mean that he's always been a terrible person? Is it hypocrisy to have ignored it until he was actually making explicit statements blaming the victims of sexual assault? Maybe. I'm not sure that's really relevant though.
The point is that a careful reading of the interview only says that when you listen to Morrissey's records you might have a different and better experience if you don't think about the things he might say to a reporter on a day when he's trying to be provocative and get some headlines. It is true that saying something and doing something are different and we don't even know if Morrissey believes in what he said in those interviews. Trolls often do not believe the things they are saying but have simply calculated how to get the most reaction and upset the most people. Maybe Colin Meloy doesn't realize Morrissey is a troll who craves negative attention. Is that preferable to calling him a terrible person? I think it's more accurate.

When people are young they often don't care about politics; especially when whatever political offense is made doesn't directly affect them. It's when they start to develop a world view that things become much more sensitive.

Secondly, Morrissey's statements had been vague enough over the years for people to be merely suspicious of his politics; especially since he's never really gone to the mat for LGBT issues, civil rights, or other so called liberal values the way he has for immigration. He had yet to clarify his broader opinions. He simply disappeared, and roamed the Earth like the Hulk until the nostalgia craze called him home.

Outside of animal rights, which is a fringe issue, he seems to be a single issue voter; to the point of backing politicians who were damaging to other causes you would assume he cared about.

Morrissey's fan-base is mostly liberal. It would be absurd to expect that his support for those politicians would not cause outrage among many of his fans. There are more important things to worry about than immigration, and you would have to have to possess a significant level of resentment about it for it to be your primary reason to back a politician.

We'll Let You Know, and National Front Disco could both be interpreted as an ode to British nationalism, or a way of mocking it. Bengali In Platforms could easily be interpreted as a tone deaf attempt to relate to the outsider. Then again, the more I pick apart the lyrics, the more I wonder. It could also be interpreted as a more underhanded way of saying: "Stay away, you'll never be ones of us, but isn't a tragedy that you'll never be one of us? See, look, sympathy!" Still, it's hard to believe that he poured over those lyrics, and it never crossed his mind.

On top of that, you have a new media age where you can relay these comments through non-traditional means like Twitter, and Facebook, and immediately broadcast them to people who don't traditionally read books, newspapers or magazines. Before, a major news organization would have to flog the issue for most people to hear about, or you had to be a follower of these publications. Even then, it was difficult to revive the issue once it fell out of the news cycle.

Morrissey is still functioning under the old media paradigm, but I don't think he cares either way. He's far past the point of either benefiting, or suffering greatly for what he says.
 
V

vegan.cro spirit #22

Guest
The people who are offended by Moz comments are the same professional snowflake whiners with no job. Its not like they bought tickets and albums before and wont now. They want to be given more stuff, not satisfied with all the free downloading they do... Bernie Sanders give them free tickets, etc. Didn't work out .bummer, but its not like now they suddenly are going to jump up and try to find a job.
If you call someone fat they are greatly offended no matter how many tons the person in question weighs. Then they will demand you marry the fat person you offended by correctly classifying as fat. Of course,most are fat themselves. They would have you marry a fat person than to diet or keep from gouging food. These are the type of people we are talking about, who pontificate on the NME blog.
 

reelfountain

Well-Known Member
I always wonder what you people are upset about. You can still say anything you want to. What "interesting" things do you want to say?
Do you think power and control or the desire to have power and control are a new thing or that it's exclusive to some group to which you feel you don't belong to? For a very long time there was power and control for straight white men to rape women and have the woman be blamed for it, or to call black people niggers or call gay people f*****s, and it was accepted as the way things are. That's what all that snowflake bullshit is about. It's people who think being white, Christian, and heterosexual is the default position. Sure they can "accept" other people and even call themselves "liberal" but they want a award for doing it. That's the problem with Hillary Clinton who was against marriage equality for decades and then suddenly realized that train had left the station without her and did her best to hop on it. That's why we have Trump for a President.
But I'm getting off track. What is it you want to say that the snowflakes won't allow? You want to blame children for being molested and women for being raped? You can do that and someone might tell you that you're a terrible person. They'll be correct.
f*** Morrisey and his bullshit. He's the "snowflake." He said that shit. He denied. The tapes showed he did say it. He still wants to be the victim? f*** that.
You've gone way off-topic on a rant here. I don't use terminology like 'snowflakes' for a start - it's part of the brainwash I'm talking about. Let's strip it back to basics. You're getting worked up about Morrissey having an opinion. Deal with it. People have likes and dislikes and they're free to do so. I was simply observing the contemporary sheep-like trend of being shocked at opinions that, let's face it, in the grand scheme of things aren't that shocking.
 
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reelfountain

Well-Known Member
Stalinist crackdown? You can't be serious? Of course, you're not. So, let's get serious.

Morrissey is allowed to say whatever he wants, and people are allowed to reject him over it. If this was a Stalinist crackdown, Morrissey would be dead; yet he still keeps making ignorant statements while earning a living, and has deposed of people for less than what he's been criticized for.

So, in summary: Physician, heal thyself!

The reality is this: It's not enough for Morrissey, and his defenders to be heard, they want to be accepted, and even supported. No one owes you that, and if you want it, then you have to earn it. Otherwise, get the thumb out of our mouth, and let go of your imaginary victimhood. It's not a good look.

There are real victims on this planet. You and Morrissey are not one of them.
Insidious Stalinism, you better believe it.
 
T

Truth

Guest
You've gone way off-topic on a rant here. I don't use terminology like 'snowflakes' for a start - it's part of the brainwash I'm talking about. Let's strip it back to basics. You're getting worked up about Morrissey having an opinion. Deal with it. People have likes and dislikes and they're free to do so. I was simply observing the contemporary sheep-like trend of being shocked at opinions that, let's face it, in the grand scheme of things aren't that shocking.

Take your own advice and deal with it. We're not talking about Morrissey's opinion. we're talking about Colin Meloy's response to it. Beyond that do you really consider blaming the victim of sexual assault to fall into the category of "likes and dislikes?"
You're not going to get it. You're not going to understand and that's okay. Your belief system and your confirmation bias could be overcome but you're comfortable seeing things the way you do and that's fine. The "sheep" are the ones who want to set the clock back fifty years and make everyone shut up and quit talking about social injustice. But when you start talking about "sheep" and "brainwash" instead of addressing the issues point by point your argument is less than compelling.
 

reelfountain

Well-Known Member
What victim of sexual assault? The 14 year old who was alone in Kevin Spacey's house and voluntarily entered his bedroom? Or those Hollywood actresses who people in power like Weinstein have queuing up outside their hotel rooms for a chance on the casting couch? Psychos like Rose McGowan? Get real. You are one of the brainwashed sheep I'm talking about. You and the Decembrist guy.
 
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T

Truth

Guest
What victim of sexual assault? The 14 year old who was alone in Kevin Spacey's house and voluntarily entered his bedroom? Or those Hollywood actresses who people in power like Weinstein have queuing up outside their hotel rooms for a chance on the casting couch? Psychos like Rose McGowan? Get real. You are one of the brainwashed sheep I'm talking about. You and the Decembrist guy.

You need to get your facts straight first. Kevin Spacey was working on a production that the 14 year old actor was also working on. He was friendly to the boy and a friend of the boy and took them a few places. He gained their trust and more importantly the trust of the boy's parents. Then he invited the boy to a party at his apartment. Because everyone else was an adult the kid was bored and Kevin Spacey told him he could watch tv in the bedroom. He did while Kevin Spacey mingled with his guests. When the party wound down Kevin Spacey went in the bedroom, picked up the boy and put him on the bed and got on top of him. When the boy protested and wanted to leave, Spacey tried to talk him into staying. When the boy insisted on leaving, Spacey called a cab as he should have done when the boy first became bored. But Kevin Spacey, it is now known, had already been accused of rape of another boy, and in the years since has committed numerous sexual assaults. He's notorious for it. At least one case is under investigation.

So Morrissey's opinion is that a 14 year old boy, should you be able to lure one to your home, is fair game and that if his parents are not there then it's their fault.

So yes, that is the sexual assault victim. You make it sound like this boy went over to Kevin Spacey's home and went in his bedroom and then told on him when he got molested. Let's say it did happen that way. Would it not still be sexual assault? Answer: Yes. According to the law and according to any reasonable ethical guidelines.
Why do you think Morrissey denied saying it?
Anyway, that's not even the point. The point is that it's a reasonable belief to think that only a "terrible person" would blame the actions of a sexual abuser on the victims of that abuser.

You ought to go back and read the interview and clear up what Morrissey said about the women who are claiming sexual harassment, too. I took time out of my life to correct your misstatement but I'm not here to convince you. Your opinion doesn't matter. You can think I'm a brainwashed sheep or whatever. But everybody gets to talk. Colin Meloy doesn't like Morrissey's opinion. You don't like Colin Meloy's opinion. I don't like your opinion. So what? I fail to see the brainwashing. And the one time you actually address the facts in the case you misstate them in order to blame a 14 year old kid for being molested by an adult. I hope you're proud of that. Nice work. If that's what you believe in then like I said, you have the right to say so and people have the right to disagree.
 

Peppermint

Well-Known Member
What victim of sexual assault? The 14 year old who was alone in Kevin Spacey's house and voluntarily entered his bedroom? Or those Hollywood actresses who people in power like Weinstein have queuing up outside their hotel rooms for a chance on the casting couch? Psychos like Rose McGowan? Get real. You are one of the brainwashed sheep I'm talking about. You and the Decembrist guy.
You need to get your facts straight first. Kevin Spacey was working on a production that the 14 year old actor was also working on. He was friendly to the boy and a friend of the boy and took them a few places. He gained their trust and more importantly the trust of the boy's parents. Then he invited the boy to a party at his apartment. Because everyone else was an adult the kid was bored and Kevin Spacey told him he could watch tv in the bedroom. He did while Kevin Spacey mingled with his guests. When the party wound down Kevin Spacey went in the bedroom, picked up the boy and put him on the bed and got on top of him. When the boy protested and wanted to leave, Spacey tried to talk him into staying. When the boy insisted on leaving, Spacey called a cab as he should have done when the boy first became bored. But Kevin Spacey, it is now known, had already been accused of rape of another boy, and in the years since has committed numerous sexual assaults. He's notorious for it. At least one case is under investigation.

So Morrissey's opinion is that a 14 year old boy, should you be able to lure one to your home, is fair game and that if his parents are not there then it's their fault.

So yes, that is the sexual assault victim. You make it sound like this boy went over to Kevin Spacey's home and went in his bedroom and then told on him when he got molested. Let's say it did happen that way. Would it not still be sexual assault? Answer: Yes. According to the law and according to any reasonable ethical guidelines.
Why do you think Morrissey denied saying it?
Anyway, that's not even the point. The point is that it's a reasonable belief to think that only a "terrible person" would blame the actions of a sexual abuser on the victims of that abuser.

You ought to go back and read the interview and clear up what Morrissey said about the women who are claiming sexual harassment, too. I took time out of my life to correct your misstatement but I'm not here to convince you. Your opinion doesn't matter. You can think I'm a brainwashed sheep or whatever. But everybody gets to talk. Colin Meloy doesn't like Morrissey's opinion. You don't like Colin Meloy's opinion. I don't like your opinion. So what? I fail to see the brainwashing. And the one time you actually address the facts in the case you misstate them in order to blame a 14 year old kid for being molested by an adult. I hope you're proud of that. Nice work. If that's what you believe in then like I said, you have the right to say so and people have the right to disagree.

Those details paint a very different picture to the one I got from the standard news coverage, and I think that's partly the point reelfountain is making. We don't have detailed discussion any more: someone shouts sexual abuse and everyone races to be front of the queue to show their disgust. I've said it before on another thread: once something becomes a hashtag, all intelligent debate is lost. It's a form of shorthand for people who don't do their own thinking.

With #metoo, we now have people crying abuse because 'someone touched my bum in 1991' and this is hysterically conflated with much more serious crimes, doing everyone a huge disservice in the process.

I rarely agree with much Morrissey says but I do think he was raising important questions here: how did this happen? Why was the boy there in the first place? At the time, I was asking the same questions myself. It's not the same thing as defending Spacey, he's just saying, it doesn't make sense, I need to know more before I can agree with all of these people. He makes a valid point, expressed incredibly clumsily, on a sensitive issue, in a foreign-language magazine, so on that basis at least he was pretty stupid. Your post answers all of the questions he was asking, but I hadn't seen those details in the press myself, so perhaps he didn't either.
 
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T

Truth

Guest
Those details paint a very different picture to the one I got from the standard news coverage, and I think that's partly the point reelfountain is making. We don't have detailed discussion any more: someone shouts sexual abuse and everyone races to be front of the queue to show their disgust. I've said it before on another thread: once something becomes a hashtag, all intelligent debate is lost. It's a form of shorthand for people who don't do their own thinking.

With #metoo, we now have people crying abuse because 'someone touched my bum in 1991' and this is hysterically conflated with much more serious crimes, doing everyone a huge disservice in the process.

I rarely agree with much Morrissey says but I do think he was raising important questions here: how did this happen? Why was the boy there in the first place? At the time, I was asking the same questions myself. It's not the same thing as defending Spacey, he's just saying, it doesn't make sense, I need to know more before I can agree with all of these people. He makes a valid point, expressed incredibly clumsily, on a sensitive issue, in a foreign-language magazine, so on that basis at least he was pretty stupid. Your post answers all of the questions he was asking, but I hadn't seen those details in the press myself, so perhaps he didn't either.
Sure. You could ask why he felt the need to raise these questions without having read about it or why he felt that it was necessary to say that the only actresses that complained about Harvey Weinstein did so because they were unsuccessful, which is also not true. But the point is that Morrissey can say these things and people can have opinions about what he said. I don't want to rehash the whole thing. His actual quotes are definitely victim blaming, calling into account their credibility and suggesting that they knew what would happen and had motivation. To me that's worse than simply believing the person's story without any evidence, but I understand that there are different points of view and that's fine.
I'm just tired of this lie, pushed mostly by the right wing, that freedom of speech is in danger. You can still say what you want to. People are just more likely to respond than they might have been in the past. Morrissey is always talking about how England is disappearing and becoming unrecognizable but part of that past he is so sorry to see go includes women having their character and morals questioned when they claim they were raped.
I really didn't want to go into the whole thing all over again. If you're saying that Morrissey and others spoke without really knowing the facts I can accept that. It's an excuse and not an explanation. He denied saying it so he knows there is a problem. He didn't say "new information has come to light." He said that if you don't hear him say it then don't believe it. A few days later we did hear him say it. That's enough for me. I really don't care what people think of Morrissey. I'm more "triggered" by the idea that those who could previously make all the uninformed and ignorant comments they wanted to now have to be careful in case someone expresses a a different opinion.
 

reelfountain

Well-Known Member
You need to get your facts straight first. Kevin Spacey was working on a production that the 14 year old actor was also working on. He was friendly to the boy and a friend of the boy and took them a few places. He gained their trust and more importantly the trust of the boy's parents. Then he invited the boy to a party at his apartment. Because everyone else was an adult the kid was bored and Kevin Spacey told him he could watch tv in the bedroom. He did while Kevin Spacey mingled with his guests. When the party wound down Kevin Spacey went in the bedroom, picked up the boy and put him on the bed and got on top of him. When the boy protested and wanted to leave, Spacey tried to talk him into staying. When the boy insisted on leaving, Spacey called a cab as he should have done when the boy first became bored. But Kevin Spacey, it is now known, had already been accused of rape of another boy, and in the years since has committed numerous sexual assaults. He's notorious for it. At least one case is under investigation.

So Morrissey's opinion is that a 14 year old boy, should you be able to lure one to your home, is fair game and that if his parents are not there then it's their fault.

So yes, that is the sexual assault victim. You make it sound like this boy went over to Kevin Spacey's home and went in his bedroom and then told on him when he got molested. Let's say it did happen that way. Would it not still be sexual assault? Answer: Yes. According to the law and according to any reasonable ethical guidelines.
Why do you think Morrissey denied saying it?
Anyway, that's not even the point. The point is that it's a reasonable belief to think that only a "terrible person" would blame the actions of a sexual abuser on the victims of that abuser.

You ought to go back and read the interview and clear up what Morrissey said about the women who are claiming sexual harassment, too. I took time out of my life to correct your misstatement but I'm not here to convince you. Your opinion doesn't matter. You can think I'm a brainwashed sheep or whatever. But everybody gets to talk. Colin Meloy doesn't like Morrissey's opinion. You don't like Colin Meloy's opinion. I don't like your opinion. So what? I fail to see the brainwashing. And the one time you actually address the facts in the case you misstate them in order to blame a 14 year old kid for being molested by an adult. I hope you're proud of that. Nice work. If that's what you believe in then like I said, you have the right to say so and people have the right to disagree.
My opinion hasn't changed. Morrissey quite rightly said that at 14 you tend to be more aware of potential sexual situations. I agree with him. The story sounds unrealistic. I believe the boy was curious. As for the whole metoo thing - it's nonsensical. It bases itself on the belief that women are naive, helpless and stupid. Hardnosed Hollywood actresses playing victim, when we all know how Hollywood and its casting couch has operated from year dot. All those involved know the game they're playing. I don't think Moz was ever defending Spacey or Weinstein - these are incredibly sleazy people in a well-known dirty industry - he was simply questioning the motives of the so-called victims. For example, do you seriously believe that sluts like Jennifer Lawrence, Gwyneth Paltrow and Rose McGowan didn't bang that fat slob (at the time) and love all it entailed and promised? Why are we suddenly supposed to wash our minds clean and believe that the casting couch (which benefits both sides) is suddenly a rape couch?
 
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Peppermint

Well-Known Member
Sure. You could ask why he felt the need to raise these questions without having read about it or why he felt that it was necessary to say that the only actresses that complained about Harvey Weinstein did so because they were unsuccessful, which is also not true. But the point is that Morrissey can say these things and people can have opinions about what he said. I don't want to rehash the whole thing. His actual quotes are definitely victim blaming, calling into account their credibility and suggesting that they knew what would happen and had motivation. To me that's worse than simply believing the person's story without any evidence, but I understand that there are different points of view and that's fine.
I'm just tired of this lie, pushed mostly by the right wing, that freedom of speech is in danger. You can still say what you want to. People are just more likely to respond than they might have been in the past. Morrissey is always talking about how England is disappearing and becoming unrecognizable but part of that past he is so sorry to see go includes women having their character and morals questioned when they claim they were raped.
I really didn't want to go into the whole thing all over again. If you're saying that Morrissey and others spoke without really knowing the facts I can accept that. It's an excuse and not an explanation. He denied saying it so he knows there is a problem. He didn't say "new information has come to light." He said that if you don't hear him say it then don't believe it. A few days later we did hear him say it. That's enough for me. I really don't care what people think of Morrissey. I'm more "triggered" by the idea that those who could previously make all the uninformed and ignorant comments they wanted to now have to be careful in case someone expresses a a different opinion.
Yes, the denying saying it was incredibly stupid and is a whole other issue. Anyway, I don't care what people think of Morrissey either. All I was trying to say was something chimed with me about what he said, even though he put it very badly. When so many jump on a cause, to the extent that all other views are drowned out by the noise, it makes me uneasy because most things in life have some complexity, and you lose the ability to see that if you reduce it down to a hashtag.
 
T

Truth

Guest
Yes, the denying saying it was incredibly stupid and is a whole other issue. Anyway, I don't care what people think of Morrissey either. All I was trying to say was something chimed with me about what he said, even though he put it very badly. When so many jump on a cause, to the extent that all other views are drowned out by the noise, it makes me uneasy because most things in life have some complexity, and you lose the ability to see that if you reduce it down to a hashtag.

Okay but look at the other side. "reelfountains" post makes it pretty plain why people do "jump on a cause."

My opinion hasn't changed. Morrissey quite rightly said that at 14 you tend to be more aware of potential sexual situations. I agree with him. The story sounds unrealistic. I believe the boy was curious. As for the whole metoo thing - it's nonsensical. It bases itself on the belief that women are naive, helpless and stupid. Hardnosed Hollywood actresses playing victim, when we all know how Hollywood and its casting couch has operated from year dot. All those involved know the game they're playing. I don't think Moz was ever defending Spacey or Weinstein - these are incredibly sleazy people in a well-known dirty industry - he was simply questioning the motives of the so-called victims. For example, do you seriously believe that sluts like Jennifer Lawrence, Gwyneth Paltrow and Rose McGowan didn't bang that fat slob (at the time) and love all it entailed and promised? Why are we suddenly supposed to wash our minds clean and believe that the casting couch (which benefits both sides) is suddenly a rape couch?

Kids are "curious" and women are "sluts" and if you say so the "brainwashed sheep" will attack you on twitter with a #hashtag you don't like.

I'm done with this one. You can have the last word.
 

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