Was Morrissey in love with Johnny Marr?

[Uncleskinny]

Johnny has repeatedly said that he had no intentions of "dragging (The Smiths) around the world until they became U2." Even if we assume that he yearned to be Keith Richards all along - why then did he do the opposite with Electronic? Why did he session for years instead of forming another guitar band?

Fans rake Johnny over the coals for his lack of ambition after the Smiths, not lack of success. Many of us felt that he could and should have done more but for some reason he didn't want to - which comes back to what Peppermint, Eldritch and I were trying to say. Whatever you might think of his choices, Johnny Marr did what he wanted and he comes across like someone who is happy with those choices. He isn't posting endless screeds about how all the world's record labels are trying to bring him down, wearing "Free Johnny" badges in perpetual victimhood or crying over chart positions like a 50-year old child. He's just getting on with it and he seems happy.

A fair assessment. I found myself listening to New Town Velocity the other day, and thinking what a fabulous bit of songwriting it was. And you can see my former office at about 1m 16s in the video. It's Hexagon House in Blackley. All the windows are hexagons, because of the benzene and naphthalene rings so vital to the dyestuff industry which was centred there, a part of my history and heritage.

 

[Amy]

That's a dick move on his part. And he doesn't have too many in his long history.

Boomslang is pretty embarrassing. I'd disown it as well.

 

[Amy]

A fair assessment. I found myself listening to New Town Velocity the other day, and thinking what a fabulous bit of songwriting it was. And you can see my former office at about 1m 16s in the video. It's Hexagon House in Blackley. All the windows are hexagons, because of the benzene and naphthalene rings so vital to the dyestuff industry which was centred there, a part of my history and heritage.

New Town... is absolutely beautiful. See him live when he next tours, if you haven't already

 

[g23]

Boomslang is pretty embarrassing. I'd disown it as well.

It had a couple of ok tracks, but the rest of it sounded like disowned Oasis tracks, and he sounded so insecure that it was embarrassing.

 

[Amy]

It had a couple of ok tracks, but the rest of it sounded like disowned Oasis tracks, and he sounded so insecure that it was embarrassing.

Insecure vocally?

 

[g23]

Insecure vocally?

Yeah. Definitely not guitar-wise. I think Johnny didn't really accept himself as a frontman until his "solo" album

 

[Gejo]

I always thought he was and that's part of the reason why he found so hard to remain friends after the break up of the band. Who knows thought!

 

[Anonymous]

Boomslang is pretty embarrassing. I'd disown it as well.

I actually just bought Boomslang and I think it's pretty good. And the single "Bangin' On" actually charted in the UK and it's not even the best song on the album. "Down on the Corner" and "Last Ride" are much better.

Johnny's current band is NOT called the Healers - that name is not on any of his true solo albums. It's just leftover on old websites and such.

 

[jerrynyc]

I think that Morrissey is the most physically attractive of The Smiths. Morrissey is beautiful both inside and out. Morrrissey has that classic Irish look with striking blue eyes, fair skin and dark brown hair. Morrissey is tall, refined and handsome. Morrissey said that his father was also a handsome man who looked like Northern Irish footballer George Best.

I don't think that Morrissey wants to be seen as bisexual. I think he talked about having a romantic relationship with photographer Jake Walters. There was also Iranian-born, Los Angeles-based Tina Dehghani. Morrissey thought about marrying Tina Dehghani and even having children with her. Tina Dehghani isn't to be confused with Mike Joyce's wife Tina Riley-Joyce her name is Christina but she is know as "Tina" for short. Also I don't think that Tina Riley-Joyce is related to Julia Riley.

Intellectually and creatively Mike Joyce is no match for Morrissey. Maybe it was Mike Joyce who had a crush on Morrissey? I think that Mike Joyce is dodgy.

Morrissey had a female friend when he was very young called Anji Hardie sadly she died of cancer at a very young age. I think that her death really affected Morrissey. Anji Hardie isn't to be confused with Johnny Marr's wife Angie Marr her name is Angela but she is know as "Angie" for short I think she was Angela Brown before she got married.

OK . whatever you say anonymous .

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

that 'new town velocity' video is hilarious ! What's he doing? some Tai Chi ?!


Morrissey just by being himself could walk around those same buildings in that video and transform it into a great work of art.


Please Johnny keep your day job as a session musician.





anyhoo ....








he even holds a guitar better than Marr!!!



Morrissey just naturally has got all the right moves.... perfect is the word.






case closed.







Dear Eldritch, it only hurts you, because it’s true.

.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

I believe Johnny but I also think that circumstance (Mike being the messenger boy) was inevitable due to the tensions between Morrissey and Marr at that time. Morrissey couldn't really have used Andy as an intermediary, for example, because Andy was Johnny's childhood friend and not about to start giving him orders. Who was left?

So, on one side, we have a situation where Johnny was overworked, fed up of Morrissey's histrionics and felt undervalued /"pushed out of the band". On the other side, Morrissey was convinced that Johnny, at this time, harboured private ambitions to be a big solo star and was being lured away by "malign influences" who urged him to chuck Moz and move on to glory. In the midst of communication problems between the 2 geniuses of the band, Joyce, ever the opportunist. steps in and makes it all worse. I don't see anything new here (highly implausible "affair" aside) - just the sad disintegration of the Smiths due to matters which could have been resolved if both Morrissey and Marr had grown up a bit and talked it out.

'Joyce, ever the opportunist.'

why do you say that ?

and whats the IKVWHIGMN song connection your trying to make ? PLEASE DON'T SAY you actually think it's about Marr ?!!
UncleS would probably say it's about Joyce! So I guess every 'love' song Morrissey writes after the Smiths is about Marr then. Anyways the song is set in his pre -Smiths days so keep that in mind.

 

[Anonymous]

and whats the IKVWHIGMN song connection your trying to make ? PLEASE DON'T SAY you actually think it's about Marr ?!!
UncleS would probably say it's about Joyce! So I guess every 'love' song Morrissey writes after the Smiths is about Marr then. Anyways the song is set in his pre -Smiths days so keep that in mind.

"I Know Very Well How I Got My Name" is about Johnny Marr because Johnny was the one who named him "Moz" - it says so in Morrissey's Autobiography. I'm sure someone can quote the appropriate passage.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

"I Know Very Well How I Got My Name" is about Johnny Marr because Johnny was the one who named him "Moz" - it says so in Morrissey's Autobiography. I'm sure someone can quote the appropriate passage.

so why does that make the song about Marr ? and how do you explain the rest of the lyrics in context of your belief it's about Marr?

 

[Amy]

'Joyce, ever the opportunist.'
why do you say that ?
and whats the IKVWHIGMN song connection your trying to make ? PLEASE DON'T SAY you actually think it's about Marr ?!!
UncleS would probably say it's about Joyce! So I guess every 'love' song Morrissey writes after the Smiths is about Marr then. Anyways the song is set in his pre -Smiths days so keep that in mind.

Well, I think it's about loss and Morrissey looking back at his life and behaviour, in the same vein as Break Up the Family. "A child in a curious phase / a man with sullen ways". But written in autumn '87 about someone who has "come and gone"? Johnny. And the same for "Disappointed", "I Don't Mind if you Forget Me", "Angel, Angel, Down We Go Together" and some others from that period. I see "I Know Very Well..." as a kind of acknowledgement that he could be a difficult person at times and a kind of thematic sequel to "I Keep Mine Hidden."

"Morrissey had this song, 'I Keep Mine Hidden', which was basically Morrissey saying, 'I'm sorry, Johnny. I'm a complete f***-up but please forgive me.' With lots of specific references, it was a very direct song."
- Grant Showbiz, Uncut, 1998

 

[Anonymous]

A fair assessment. I found myself listening to New Town Velocity the other day, and thinking what a fabulous bit of songwriting it was. And you can see my former office at about 1m 16s in the video. It's Hexagon House in Blackley. All the windows are hexagons, because of the benzene and naphthalene rings so vital to the dyestuff industry which was centred there, a part of my history and heritage.

You don't say...

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Well, I think it's about loss and Morrissey looking back at his life and behaviour, in the same vein as Break Up the Family. "A child in a curious phase / a man with sullen ways". But written in autumn '87 about someone who has "come and gone"? Johnny. And the same for "Disappointed", "I Don't Mind if you Forget Me", "Angel, Angel, Down We Go Together" and some others from that period. I see "I Know Very Well..." as a kind of acknowledgement that he could be a difficult person at times and a kind of thematic sequel to "I Keep Mine Hidden."

"Morrissey had this song, 'I Keep Mine Hidden', which was basically Morrissey saying, 'I'm sorry, Johnny. I'm a complete f***-up but please forgive me.' With lots of specific references, it was a very direct song."
- Grant Showbiz, Uncut, 1998

Well everyone, even Grant Showbiz! has an opinion or they think they know what song is about Marr.

'Well, I think it's about loss and Morrissey looking back at his life'

yes, agree. It's seems to be the theme of Viva Hate.

'But written in autumn '87'

ok, so you're saying the lyrics to the song 'I KNOW VERY WELL' were written in 1987 ?

How do you know this ? We know when the finished song was released, but how do you know what year those lyrics in part or in whole were written ?

Saying that those songs you mentioned in your post above are about Marr is mere speculation and NOT fact.

Except for....' Angel, Angel, Down we go together' for which Morrissey himself has said that the song was about the way he saw Johnny Marr being mistreated by people in the music industry. My opinion is that the love described in that song is not one of a sexual nature, but one of intense friendship and caring. Though, I also think the song ( like most are) is a composite, and so not specifically about Marr, I'm speaking here about the lines 'don't take your life' which may be about another person fictional or not, or maybe just used to emphasize the emotional drama of the song.

Anyways, when I listen to these songs, I'm not thinking 'is this song about Marr? or, 'who is he singing about?'
Actually I'm not really thinking AT ALL, just feeling and relating to the feelings of the song, surrendering to it totally, so to be moved and taken somewhere far far away... 'deep in the cell of my heart', and music is the key to that cell.







So unless Morrissey reveals what other songs are about Marr .......


WE JUST DON'T KNOW.





case closed.

 

[Amy]

Well everyone, even Grant Showbiz! has an opinion or they think they know what song is about Marr.

You asked me to explain my opinion so I did. And of course it's not a fact, no interpretation of a song ever is. I'd say it was more likely to be about the loss of Johnny & the Smiths than, say, his cat dying in 1987 for example. As for the timings - in May, he and Marr were running low on material and hence the whole Cilla Black situation. In October, he was ready to start recording Viva Hate. Who else had "come and gone" in that period? The gas bloke? Next door's postman? Mam & Auntie Jeane?

Morrissey said the end of the Smiths "could have killed" him so of course he was going to write about it. Losing your band, your friends, something you've put your hopes into - he wasn't going to sit at home and write "Dagenham Dave", was he? So why it is so implausible that songs with lines like, "So now you send me your hardened "regards", where once you'd send me love" are about losing all that?

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

You asked me to explain my opinion so I did. And of course it's not a fact, no interpretation of a song ever is. I'd say it was more likely to be about the loss of Johnny & the Smiths than, say, his cat dying in 1987 for example. As for the timings - in May, he and Marr were running low on material and hence the whole Cilla Black/Twinkle situation.
In October, he was ready to start recording Viva Hate. Who else had "come and gone" in that period? The gas bloke? Next door's postman? Mam & Auntie Jeane?

Morrissey said the end of the Smiths "could have killed" him so of course he was going to write about it. Losing your band, your friends, something you've put your hopes into - he wasn't going to sit at home and write "Dagenham Dave", was he? So why it is so implausible that songs with lines like, "So now you send me your hardened "regards", where once you'd send me love" are about losing all that?

No I didn't say they definitely were not about Marr or anyone in particular, that we wouldn't know, I'm sure he's had enough lost loves (real or imagined) before the Smiths started to be able to write '"So now you send me your hardened "regards", where once you'd send me love". I find it hard you can't believe this, and can ONLY think they are about one person... Marr. That doesn't make any sense. Why cling to the obvious observation ' the Smiths just split so all songs about a loss of a love are about Marr'. Can't you think beyond that ?

'in May, he and Marr were running low on material and hence the whole Cilla Black/Twinkle situation.'

where did you get this information? Why Twinkle? Don't you mean just 'work is a four letter' sung by Cilla Black?

And 'low on material' ? didn't Marr in his bio say that he was forced to go back into the studio before going on honeymoon and Joyce tells him we're gonna do two covers one Cilla's and the other Elvis? I mean, that's if you believe what Marr writes in his book. Did Morrissey ever say he was 'low on material' at this time? Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't remember every detail of 'Autobiography'.

And I never met a lyric writer(and also speaking personally) who would be 'low on material', song lyric writers usual collect/keep around plenty of notebooks filled with words,ideas,song fragments that may eventually become whole songs, dipping into the past, present, and imagined future, and I suspect it's the same for Morrissey.

Anyway, there's no proof when any of the words on Viva Hate were written, and If, as you say, he was low on material, then wouldn't you fined it easier to believe he ransacked older notebooks to compose all those songs in such a short period of time?



I'm surprised he admitted that 'Angel, Angel' was about Marr, guess he wanted to make that clear to Marr himself and not so much to the fans reading that interview.

oh and here .....

In an interview published in 1992 (source needed), Morrissey said:

"It was written with Johnny Marr in mind and it is the only song that I have written with him in mind, post Smiths. I saw him in the music industry being used and being pushed around and being manipulated and I felt I was in a situation and I thought, 'Look at me, look at you - it's the same, it's a mess and this is as far as we will go' which wasn't quite true in the end but at that moment it felt pretty despairing for both, I felt despairing for both of us but I was wrong."

also this ....

'Angel, Angel, Down We Go is a 1969 film. It was also known as Cult of the Damned. It is the sole directorial credit for playwright and screenwriter Robert Thom, who had previously written Wild in the Streets for American International Pictures, who produced this follow-up.

It was the first film actress Jennifer Jones made following her suicide attempt. '

' Angel, Angel ... don't take your life, tonight '













.

 

[Anonymous]

Well everyone, even Grant Showbiz! has an opinion or they think they know what song is about Marr.

'Well, I think it's about loss and Morrissey looking back at his life'

yes, agree. It's seems to be the theme of Viva Hate.

'But written in autumn '87'

ok, so you're saying the lyrics to the song 'I KNOW VERY WELL' were written in 1987 ?

How do you know this ? We know when the finished song was released, but how do you know what year those lyrics in part or in whole were written ?

Saying that those songs you mentioned in your post above are about Marr is mere speculation and NOT fact.

Except for....' Angel, Angel, Down we go together' for which Morrissey himself has said that the song was about the way he saw Johnny Marr being mistreated by people in the music industry. My opinion is that the love described in that song is not one of a sexual nature, but one of intense friendship and caring. Though, I also think the song ( like most are) is a composite, and so not specifically about Marr, I'm speaking here about the lines 'don't take your life' which may be about another person fictional or not, or maybe just used to emphasize the emotional drama of the song.

Anyways, when I listen to these songs, I'm not thinking 'is this song about Marr? or, 'who is he singing about?'
Actually I'm not really thinking AT ALL, just feeling and relating to the feelings of the song, surrendering to it totally, so to be moved and taken somewhere far far away... 'deep in the cell of my heart', and music is the key to that cell.







So unless Morrissey reveals what other songs are about Marr .......


WE JUST DON'T KNOW.





case closed.

 

[Amy]

No I didn't say they definitely were not about Marr or anyone in particular, that we wouldn't know, I'm sure he's had enough lost loves (real or imagined) before the Smiths started to be able to write '"So now you send me your hardened "regards", where once you'd send me love". I find it hard you can't believe this, and can ONLY think they are about one person... Marr. That doesn't make any sense. Why cling to the obvious observation ' the Smiths just split so all songs about a loss of a love are about Marr'. Can't you think beyond that ?
.

I never said 'all' songs, just some pretty specific and fairly blatant ones from the immediate aftermath of the Smiths split. You disagree, KS, so let's leave it there. If you want to know more about their final sessions, read the Tony Fletcher book, Mozipedia by Simon Goddard, Songs That Saved Your Life or the Severed Alliance. I'm not pointlessly arguing into the ground about something that (in my view) pretty much stares you in the face. Making certain passages of text enormous or brightly coloured is needless and doesn't strengthen your argument.