What exactly did Morrissey say about Michael Jackson?

I completely understand your point of view. As I said above, I'm not hating on Michael Jackson. I'm merely questioning the praise thrown his way.

And yes, you can't objectively argue music. I know that. I do think you can fix somebody's place in the history of pop music, though, and on that score I feel pretty strongly that Michael was great for a span of time that wasn't a whole lot longer than many pop stars' brief, flickering eras of popularity. I realize the Jackson 5 were popular in the Seventies, and he deserves credit for that, but in reality when people talk about Michael Jackson's "genius" they're talking about "Off The Wall" and "Thriller", with "Bad" and "Dangerous" coming in as solid, occasionally great, but generally inferior efforts that mark a downward trajectory.

Four albums. Four. Only two of which are considered true classics. Over a span of about one decade.

(That's about the same legacy as The Smiths, but never mind.)

There are so many other performers, before Michael and since, who have a better track record as artists. Not commercially: none sold as many albums as "Thriller", but that album, deserving of its status as one of the all-time classics, was still kind of a fluke. Artistically speaking, trying to take the widest possible view, he's second-tier, in my book. I wouldn't even rate him as high as (say) Kraftwerk or Bob Marley. Compared to Elvis, Lennon/McCartney, Dylan, Springsteen and others, he's not even in the conversation.

As a cultural phenomenon, he was perhaps unequalled, or at least as "big" as Elvis or The Beatles, but you can just as easily put that down to random fluctuations in consumer spending, no different than sales of Cabbage Patch Kids, Rubik's Cubes or-- ahem-- Pepsi.

If you take away the hype, he was just another megapopstar who shone brightly for a few years and fizzled out. We should give the man his due, but let's not go overboard and call him a transcendant godlike figure. I know you aren't saying that, but lots of people are. :)

I was going to say about The Smiths, but you said it yourself so I won't :)

The thing is, these things are never rational, are they? When a star dies people are going to put them on a pedestal and give them far more credit than they "deserve" (I still think being popular with Jackson 5 throughout the 70's and then making four great solo albums, one of which was the best selling album of all time, is pretty good). It's just human nature to go a bit over board when someone dies.

Anyway, I don't really see the adoration so much here in the UK. On every single comedy quiz they insist on making nasty MJ jokes and I find myself not able to laugh at them, even if they are funny.
 
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Well lets all hope Jacko is now in a better place - no more creditors banging on his door wanting to take his toys & animals away from Neverland. No more lawyers accusing him of kiddy fidling.

And I'm only saying this half jokingly....

Sometimes death is a blessing. And let's face it: It will come to every man on this planet. Who is to say when's the "right" time to go?
 
Well lets all hope Jacko is now in a better place - no more creditors banging on his door wanting to take his toys & animals away from Neverland. No more lawyers accusing him of kiddy fidling.

And I'm only saying this half jokingly....

Sometimes death is a blessing. And let's face it: It will come to every man on this planet. Who is to say when's the "right" time to go?

Exactly. It was, sadly, probably the best time for him to go. Imagine what a shambles his 50 nights at the 02 would have become. Sad but true. At least now he'll be remembered (by most people) for his successes rather than a monumental f***-fest the 02 dates would have become.
 
As I know, Morrissey never liked Micheal and his work...

I do not know if Moz had said something about him.
 
Re: hmmmm

It's nothing new.

Morrissey often slags off other big pop stars such as Kylie, Madonna etc.

I don't have any problem with it, it's his opinion.

Surely he is slagging off the people who print up these t-shirts at the instance a pop-star dies.

Or am i being stooopid
 
Re: hmmmm

Surely he is slagging off the people who print up these t-shirts at the instance a pop-star dies.
Or am i being stooopid

nope, you're quite right. Moz is not accusing M Jackson of being a crashing bore. whether you liked him or not, he clearly wasn't.
 
Smooth Criminal. Dirty Diana. Beat It. Billie Jean. Human Nature. The Way You Make Me Feel. I Just Can't Stop Loving You. She's Out Of My Life. Wanna Be Starting Something. Rock With You.

There is simply no way that anyone can genuinely say they do not appreciate at least some of these tracks.

I understand why Black or White/ We Are The World/ Heal The World/ Earth Song offend and trouble some people - especially Morrissey fans who are, in my experience, incredibly cynical about most matters.

If we all stop suckling at the teat of Morrissey for five minutes - which so many people on here, myself included, are sometimes guilty of - and if we ignore the fact that Morrissey hates the music video. Michaels Jackson launched MTV, becoming a worldwide sensation. He has inspired so many people to sing, write and dance. He has, which nobody ever bothers to mention, been one of the main humanitarian forces in the music industry.

The people who say that it's 'hyperbole' to say that Jackson 'touched people's hearts' etc. You can't say that. You don't know that. Yes, a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon, as always happens when a celebrity dies. But some people, from kids he visited in hospital, to dance students who watched him in awe, are genuinely hurt by his passing.

I like Jackson. Like, not love. But I can appreciate what he meant to some people. If you don't like him, if you think every single song of his that you've heard is shit, then fair enough. But I really don't believe that there is anyone who can HONESTLY say that. Nobody is that pretencious, not even Morrissey. I guarantee that he at least has listened to 'Off The Wall' a few times. You can't love music and not appreciate it.
 
the thing about song-based music is, if you don't like the singer's voice, you're never going to enjoy the songs. it's how I feel about (for example) Radiohead, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Five Star, Led Zeppelin, The Arctic Monkeys etc, and it's how I feel about M Jackson.
I never enjoy listening to his songs. doesn't mean they're no good...

Smooth Criminal. Dirty Diana. Beat It. Billie Jean. Human Nature. The Way You Make Me Feel. I Just Can't Stop Loving You. She's Out Of My Life. Wanna Be Starting Something. Rock With You.

There is simply no way that anyone can genuinely say they do not appreciate at least some of these tracks.

I understand why Black or White/ We Are The World/ Heal The World/ Earth Song offend and trouble some people - especially Morrissey fans who are, in my experience, incredibly cynical about most matters.

If we all stop suckling at the teat of Morrissey for five minutes - which so many people on here, myself included, are sometimes guilty of - and if we ignore the fact that Morrissey hates the music video. Michaels Jackson launched MTV, becoming a worldwide sensation. He has inspired so many people to sing, write and dance. He has, which nobody ever bothers to mention, been one of the main humanitarian forces in the music industry.

The people who say that it's 'hyperbole' to say that Jackson 'touched people's hearts' etc. You can't say that. You don't know that. Yes, a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon, as always happens when a celebrity dies. But some people, from kids he visited in hospital, to dance students who watched him in awe, are genuinely hurt by his passing.

I like Jackson. Like, not love. But I can appreciate what he meant to some people. If you don't like him, if you think every single song of his that you've heard is shit, then fair enough. But I really don't believe that there is anyone who can HONESTLY say that. Nobody is that pretencious, not even Morrissey. I guarantee that he at least has listened to 'Off The Wall' a few times. You can't love music and not appreciate it.
 
Smooth Criminal. Dirty Diana. Beat It. Billie Jean. Human Nature. The Way You Make Me Feel. I Just Can't Stop Loving You. She's Out Of My Life. Wanna Be Starting Something. Rock With You. There is simply no way that anyone can genuinely say they do not appreciate at least some of these tracks.

I liked "Billie Jean", "Beat It", "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough", and "Wanna Be Starting Something". I was nine years old at the time. When I hear those songs now I often find them as catchy as ever except for the vocals, which I can't stand. (I assume I am hearing Quincy Jones' genius, not Michael's, but that's a point I can't really argue.)

I understand why Black or White/ We Are The World/ Heal The World/ Earth Song offend and trouble some people - especially Morrissey fans who are, in my experience, incredibly cynical about most matters.

Jackson infantilized important political issues, turning serious analyses of societies and governments into childlike sing-alongs that would have made Walt Disney wrinkle his nose. Morrissey himself said it best, referring to the tragedy in Ethiopia that Jackson wanted to help with. Governments could have ended the famine immediately if they wanted to, but nobody was speaking up. They preferred to arrange celebrity choirs to shower the masses in drippy pop guilt while selling truckloads of t-shirts and other merchandise. Meanwhile the real problems remained unaddressed.

Lest you think me "cynical", this point of view is implicitly endorsed by none other than the great humanitarian Bono, who figured out that the way to help poor Africans is to get Western governments to forgive debt rather than ask average citizens to send cash. Even his foundation's attempts to sell merchandise (such as RED) are based on the idea of giving consumers something they want rather than asking them to fork over charity.

All of this was beyond Jackson's worldview. Give the man credit for helping, yes, but don't say that the objections to Jackson's "big heart" are cynical.

Michaels Jackson launched MTV, becoming a worldwide sensation.

MTV launched Michael Jackson more than he launched the network. They fed off each other, but credit MTV more than Jackson.

He has inspired so many people to sing, write and dance.

Such as?

He has, which nobody ever bothers to mention, been one of the main humanitarian forces in the music industry.

Nobody bothers to mention it because we listen to pop records to enjoy them, not to feed starving babies. The more I hear people bring up Jackson's humanitarian deeds, the more I think there really isn't much of an argument to be made for his music. I'll say it again: a handful of catchy singles, two classic albums, and two more decent ones. What's the big deal? How is this guy different than John Mellencamp, Duran Duran, Tom Petty, and others? What gave this yelping little pixie the right to call himself "The King of Pop", other than a press release thought up by his agent?

The people who say that it's 'hyperbole' to say that Jackson 'touched people's hearts' etc. You can't say that. You don't know that.

I never said Jackson didn't touch people's hearts. I said Jackson didn't touch everyone's heart, which is the outrageous claim made over and over again since his death.

I guarantee that he at least has listened to 'Off The Wall' a few times. You can't love music and not appreciate it.

You guarantee it? Really? :rolleyes:

I prefer to listen to artists I like, not artists I "must" like as a categorical imperative. The old "music appreciation" saw is always the weakest argument to make. I'll gladly "appreciate" Michael Jackson the same way I gladly "appreciate" Scott Joplin, Meatloaf, Otis Redding, John Tesh, and hundreds of others. Musical geniuses! All of them! Geniuses! And the next time I choose to play one of their songs for the sake of sheer enjoyment will be the first.
 
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the thing about song-based music is, if you don't like the singer's voice, you're never going to enjoy the songs. it's how I feel about (for example) Radiohead, Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Five Star, Led Zeppelin, The Arctic Monkeys etc, and it's how I feel about M Jackson.
I never enjoy listening to his songs. doesn't mean they're no good...
Nail..head of..hit! :thumb:
It's like when people expect you to agree The Beatles were the greatest , or Dylan, or Radiohead. People will say surely you're not arguing that Morrissey is greater than them. To which I can only say Yes, he is greater to me than all those cats. The whole notion of who annoints the greatest bugs me boss-eyed. Popular music is utterly subjective, and hurrah for that.
As for Jacko, I'm afraid there are some acts of personal behaviour that cannot fail to obscure any notions of singin' or dancin' genius; 'sleeping' with 13 year old boys and then paying them and their family members to keep silent would be among such acts :straightface:
 
just came back from the uk

may i add a little something which might prob be coincidal but at either the last or second to last gig(.if my tired brain remembers correctly it was the last gig)
he did walk a few steps back and while doing that he does it more in a gliding way than exactly stepping ..more gliding .( i dont know if this would pass already as an moonwalk but it has that feel to it)possibly coincidal.funny to watch anyway,,,
then he goes into the next song
hopes for video evidence:)
 
Re: hmmmm

I think the people selling those hideous t-shirts and those who buy and wear them are crashing bores, too.
 
Re: hmmmm

He doesn't like anything that isn't rock.

I don't think that is the case. He has been spotted at a Pavarotti concert. He also likes classical music. Nico (one of his favourites) is not "rock" either. There's loads more examples.

I think he just doesn't like commercial pop-stars who are haven't got much to say and who are force-fed to people via Pepsi ads, MTV, etc.

If you take music and pop music seriously, you want to find substance, edge and originality. Pop music is not just happy & harmless entertainment. Your life depends on it! So to me, the likes of Madonna or MJ are just.....nothing. They are equivalent to a can of Coke bought at the petrol station.
 
I wish that you had been unreasonable, refused to back away from your statement, and proceeded to abuse me with colorfully foul language. But, anyway: thanks. And stay away from CNN. :)

I guess, if I think about it, his death did affect me somewhat. I find myself doing the strangest things these days without even realizing it. I'll be walking down the street and start humming "Beat It", or I'll see a red leather jacket out of the corner of my eye and look over as if I might catch one more glimpse of the King. Just this morning in the elevator I got a little tear in my eye and suddenly, without thinking about what I was doing, grabbed my crotch and yelped "HEE-HEE".

I guess the old lady who shrieked and sprayed me with mace hadn't come to grips with her emotions yet.

I do wish to retain my stance and avoid the numbing effects of CNN.
 
He asked if Madonna would make the African boy into a coat.
:eek::lbf:That actually sounds authentic Moz.

The Sunday mags had some really vile MJ collectors plates this week.....I wonder if Moz will have a collectors plate?
 
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