WTF Israel?

nogodsnomasters85

Not Stirred
[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Zf_Qvl1un7M&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Zf_Qvl1un7M&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Glen Greenwald sums it up very nicely in this piece. My only complaint is that he never addresses Spitzer's bogus assertion that Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel. Hamas is aligned with the Arab League, the UN, etc., in peaceful relations with Isreal along the 1967 perameters. Even Hezbollah has said they would accept that.
 

Novice

Banned
Last edited:

nogodsnomasters85

Not Stirred
Hamas probably does want the destruction of Israel.

Some of them, deep down, yeah, probably. However, that isn't their official policy. Moreover, I'd say Hamas has shown more interest and dedication to peaceful coexistance than Israel has. Obviously, criminal violence against Israelis is wrong and should be addressed, but so is criminal violence BY Israel. Incidentally, so is state terrorism committed by the US.
 
D

Dave

Guest
Some of them, deep down, yeah, probably. However, that isn't their official policy. Moreover, I'd say Hamas has shown more interest and dedication to peaceful coexistance than Israel has. Obviously, criminal violence against Israelis is wrong and should be addressed, but so is criminal violence BY Israel. Incidentally, so is state terrorism committed by the US.

I think that the greater dedication to the peace process may come from being the party with less power. It's only logical and strategic that they want some semblance of peace, being subject to obliteration otherwise.

While Israel's actions in this raid seem to be criminal, I don't think that Hamas' renunciation of their original goal, to destroy the state of Israel, should be accepted without some suspicion. It seems that if the goal of the organization has changed that radically, a new organization would be necessary to take its place.

That doesn't let Israel off the hook. I'm just saying that we shouldn't accept Hamas' statements without some proof, which will take time.
 

Theo

Active Member
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm
"The people on the boats were very, very violent toward the soldiers," Israeli military spokeswoman Lt Col Avital Leibovich was quoted as saying by AFP news agency."
:crazy:

If any country is ever going to start a world war it's this one.



The time stamp on this thread is May 31, 2010, 03:09 AM. So we know anon x wasn't just reflexively condemning Israel before he knew all the facts.

BTW, did anon x make a thread about North Korea attacking a South Korean ship and killing 46 people?
 

anon x

New Member
The time stamp on this thread is May 31, 2010, 03:09 AM. So we know anon x wasn't just reflexively condemning Israel before he knew all the facts.

BTW, did anon x make a thread about North Korea attacking a South Korean ship and killing 46 people?

If you check out my comments in off topic on this i said i'd reserve judgement till an independent official enquiry came up with a timeline of events.
As for my post here, I quoted a BBC source and still stand by my,
"If any country is ever going to start a world war it's this one."

No,i didn't make a N Korea thread pretty much like you didn't make a thread when,for example,Israel was accused of war crimes by the UN.

We can't all make threads about EVERYTHING.
 

Theo

Active Member
Glen Greenwald sums it up very nicely in this piece.

Of course, you chose the version of that clip that edits out when Spitzer brings on an international law expert - Prof. Ruth Redwood - at the end. She dismisses Greenwald's assertions and says that, as a matter of law, Israel had a right to board the ships.

She does, however, feel Greenwald has legit general concerns about humanitarian items not getting through the blockade that could improve the quality of life in Gaza.

However, in this case, Hamas rejected the goods that the flotilla brought. :lbf:

“Hamas has refused to allow those trucks to go in,” the official said, “and if the aid is so urgent, my question is, why are they not allowing it into Gaza?”

The official added that “we have conducted talks with the Red Cross [to try and get the aid in], but Hamas is still refusing. In the meantime, the rest of truckloads will wait in Israel until further notice.”

Yup, it was all just transparently a propaganda mission to provoke Israel.

This reminds me of all the reports from leftists about how people were suffering in Iraq because of the U.N. sanctions. Yet, when a leader on the world's stage actually called for lifting the sanctions and changing the Iraqi regime, the leftists made a bunch of documentary films about how wonderful and peaceful conditions were in Iraq during the pre-regime-change, sanctions period, and they gave these films awards such as the Best Documentary Oscar and the Palme d'Or. The leftists whipped up into an anti-American and anti-Israeli frenzy will apparently go with any lie they think they can get away with. Sincerely caring about people and caring about peace is another story.

My only complaint is that he never addresses Spitzer's bogus assertion that Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel.

:crazy: That's probably because Hamas' goal is the destruction of Israel.....


BTW, I think Israel's tactics in this case were extremely stupid and played right into the Islamic terrorists' hands. Israel needs to wise up. There were plenty of better ways to deal with the Ship of Hate.
 
Last edited:

Theo

Active Member
like you didn't make a thread when,for example,Israel was accused of war crimes by the UN.


That's because the UN has condemned Israel more than they have condemned all the other countries in the world put together, and thus I know not to take the U.N. very seriously. I suppose you believe that Israel is more evil than all of the other countries in the world combined? Or do they get second place to the USA?

The international community yawned over North Korea attacking the South Korean ship. Strange, no?
 
Last edited:

anon x

New Member
The international community yawned over North Korea attacking the South Korean ship. Strange, no?

Not at all,both teams are in the World Cup.That's MUCH more important to the international community.
Would be great if they get to play each other.
:)
 

Emotional Guide Dog

Chairman Of The Bored
That's because the UN has condemned Israel more than they have condemned all the other countries in the world put together, and thus I know not to take the U.N. very seriously. I suppose you believe that Israel is more evil than all of the other countries in the world combined? Or do they get second place to the USA?

The international community yawned over North Korea attacking the South Korean ship. Strange, no?

Don't defend Israel. It simply cannot be done. The Israeli government are every bit as evil as any other government you could mention.

There are already sanctions in place against North Korea, Israel get away with anything they like. Including having chemical weapons.

Anyway, if you support Israel in any way, you're no better than someone who defended aparthied.
 

drunken goldfish

blah blah fishcakes
"The people on the boats were very, very violent toward the soldiers," Israeli military spokeswoman Lt Col Avital Leibovich was quoted as saying by AFP news agency."
:crazy:

Hey anon x, did you see these pictures, published in the Turkish press yesterday, showing several Israeli commandos who were wounded and captured (for long enough to take these "trophy pictures", anyway) on the boat? Maybe you could explain this to me, cause I'm a little confused - just how did those people manage to overpower not one but several armed, trained commandos? Did they close their eyes and wish real hard?
 

drunken goldfish

blah blah fishcakes
anon x, I see you're having trouble with my last question, so here are a few easier ones:
- Was your first impression of the event distorted in some way?
- Would you have known that it was if I hadn't provided you with that link?
- Is it possible that something of this sort has happened before? That is, that an article you read about Israel was somewhat distorted, but you were never made aware that the story was more complex?

Just food for thought (for everyone else on this thread, too).


Hamas probably does want the destruction of Israel.

Some of them, deep down, yeah, probably. However, that isn't their official policy.
You're kidding, right? It's in their mission statement, for God's sake, several times! I think the English term is "The Hamas Charter" - go have a look, you're in for some surprises.
 

nogodsnomasters85

Not Stirred
Hey anon x, did you see these pictures, published in the Turkish press yesterday, showing several Israeli commandos who were wounded and captured (for long enough to take these "trophy pictures", anyway) on the boat? Maybe you could explain this to me, cause I'm a little confused - just how did those people manage to overpower not one but several armed, trained commandos? Did they close their eyes and wish real hard?

What little we've seen of the raid is almost entirely worthless. There are hours worth of footage from multiple cameras and Israel has only released a couple of images that, unsurprisingly, paint them in the best possible light. (Unlike, for example, the American kid who was shot several times in the chest and head at close range.) It's beyond editing, it's propaganda.


You're kidding, right? It's in their mission statement, for God's sake, several times! I think the English term is "The Hamas Charter" - go have a look, you're in for some surprises.

However, that isn’t what they’re doing. Hamas does recognize Israel, and has expressed a desire for a peaceful, two-state solution along the lines of the ’67 parameters. They were abiding by the cease-fire until Israel invaded and started killing people, which was followed by the bloodbath they perpetrated in Gaza where the casualty ratios exceeded 100-to-one. That’s not in any way proportionate. Hamas has shown more interest in diplomacy than Israel has, they aren’t even trying. It’s just naked aggression. Again, I also want to make it clear that I’m not picking on Israel, I hold the US to the same standard and have no shortage of objections to our own disaster in the middle east.

Also, you’re claims about misleading stories in the media would be perfectly sound if you you were arguing from the opposite side. The US media is overwhelmingly, and completely biased in favor of Israel. It’s laughable. Even the suggestion that the Israeli government may have stepped over the line is often sufficient enough to initiate charges of anti-semitism. What’s really interesting is it seems to be even more radical in the US than in Israel. If some of the stuff that gets published in Haaretz got published in a mainstream American newspaper heads would roll.
 

drunken goldfish

blah blah fishcakes
What little we've seen of the raid is almost entirely worthless. There are hours worth of footage from multiple cameras and Israel has only released a couple of images that, unsurprisingly, paint them in the best possible light. (Unlike, for example, the American kid who was shot several times in the chest and head at close range.) It's beyond editing, it's propaganda.
You realize that the Turks are the one who both took and published these photos, yes? Of course each country chooses to present the material which paints it in a positive light, that's what makes photos from the other side which back up your story all the more valuable.
Even if you don't buy the Israeli version completely, the photos at least show that initial coverage of the story was distorted. This was my main point - that stories in the Middle East (or in any war-torn area, I imagine) are far more complex than what is presented in the media, and unless you're willing to do the research, your opinions just can't be well founded. Sadly, most of the posters on Solo don't seem to get this.
However, that isn’t what they’re doing.
Hamas does recognize Israel, and has expressed a desire for a peaceful, two-state solution along the lines of the ’67 parameters.
So has Israel. Also, you can't seriously be suggesting that what's written in their charter doesn't count? If they're so interested in a peaceful solution, why won't they change the charter, which repeatedly says the opposite? Isn't that, like, the first step?
They were abiding by the cease-fire until Israel invaded and started killing people, which was followed by the bloodbath they perpetrated in Gaza where the casualty ratios exceeded 100-to-one. That’s not in any way proportionate.
Again, very complex issue, which you're trying to turn into black and white. The invasion, which I agree was very tragic and disproportionate, was the result of 7 years of rockets on the south of Israel, from the very same places which were evacuated by Israel in an attempt for peace.

Also, you’re claims about misleading stories in the media would be perfectly sound if you you were arguing from the opposite side. The US media is overwhelmingly, and completely biased in favor of Israel. It’s laughable. Even the suggestion that the Israeli government may have stepped over the line is often sufficient enough to initiate charges of anti-semitism. What’s really interesting is it seems to be even more radical in the US than in Israel. If some of the stuff that gets published in Haaretz got published in a mainstream American newspaper heads would roll.
I'm going to have to take your word for it (if other networks are like Fox News, which I have seen, I would agree). However, as Moz fans know, America is not the world, and I am very very concerned with the one sided image of the events in the European press. Why can't journalists just do their job properly?
 
Top Bottom