Definitely worth checking out.
See here at 8pm UK time:
Regards,
FWD.
Well, here's how I see it:
"The black peat of the hills
When I was still ill
See this mess and forgive someone"
Morrissey loves self-referencing - when was he 'still ill', well, that's obvious but I think "the black peat of the hills" refers to Saddleworth Moor. In Autobiography, he writes about going to Saddleworth with Johnny after the split and trying to talk things over - a time 'where the coffin lifted shifted and the old spark rose like a small miracle.' They reconciled for a period, then fell out again - he references it again after the court case.
"And then recall if you can
How all this even began
Forgive someone"
"Recall.. how all this began" - 'this' being, to my ears, his music career rather than his life. "I know you're pissed off with me but remember when we were starting out?" It's not unusual to appeal to old feelings when you've fallen out with someone.
You are assuming Morrissey never went walking on Saddleworth Moor with anyobe else. 'Still Ill' was a song written about someone pre-Smiths, or are you saying that he and Johnny once kissed? I think the person Morrissey referenced in Still Ill is the same person referenced in Forgive Someone.Well, here's how I see it:
"The black peat of the hills
When I was still ill
See this mess and forgive someone"
Morrissey loves self-referencing - when was he 'still ill', well, that's obvious but I think "the black peat of the hills" refers to Saddleworth Moor. In Autobiography, he writes about going to Saddleworth with Johnny after the split and trying to talk things over - a time 'where the coffin lifted shifted and the old spark rose like a small miracle.' They reconciled for a period, then fell out again - he references it again after the court case.
"And then recall if you can
How all this even began
Forgive someone"
"Recall.. how all this began" - 'this' being, to my ears, his music career rather than his life. "I know you're pissed off with me but remember when we were starting out?" It's not unusual to appeal to old feelings when you've fallen out with someone.
The stuff about track and field - it's just a strange little verse that doesn't seem to fit it in with the rest of the song. What Mancunian uses a word like 'bleachers'? And Jon Daly - well, Jon was gay, right? But the song says "Here's one thing you'll never have" - which gives me the impression the person knew he liked them but wouldn't/couldn't reciprocate.
You are assuming Morrissey never went walking on Saddleworth Moor with anyone else. 'Still Ill' was a song written about someone pre-Smiths, or are you saying that he and Johnny once kissed? I think the person Morrissey referenced in Still Ill is the same person referenced in Forgive Someone.
Also, yeah, Billy Budd is about Johnny. It was written around the time they first met again after the break-up, wasn't it?
Given the timing of Vauxhall, I'd assume Billy Budd was written in 1993 or so and at that time they had recently gotten back in touch.
The mentioning of the "back peat on the hills" could also just be a reference to the place where "all this even began" which in this case would be Manchester. And yes, Still Ill is just a reference point in time.True, he did pass through Saddleworth with Linder and James Maker after the split (also in Autobio) - but I think you're stretching the possibility a bit far there, given the context in Autobio. Morrissey did have a fixation with the Moors murders and mentions Saddleworth many times, but it's not really a place that you'd go for a casual stroll with your mates. Maybe he went walking there with someone else and just left that out of the story and put Johnny in...but IMO that's not very likely.
"Still Ill" was just a reference to the timeframe, The Smiths period. I don't think that song is about anyone, actually - the 'sore lips' bit is lifted from Viv Nicholson's autobiography Spend, Spend, Spend ("We walked for miles... right under the iron bridge and down underneath it. We were kissing away and getting really sore lips from biting one another.") and at that time he often plagiarised films and poetry for inspiration. The line "Society owes me a living" supposedly came from Myra Hindley.
Not to mention the "12 years on..." lyric matching the timeframe of when they met and the fact that Melville wrote "John Marr and Other Sailors" before "Billy Budd."Given the timing of Vauxhall, I'd assume Billy Budd was written in 1993 or so and at that time they had recently gotten back in touch.
True, he did pass through Saddleworth with Linder and James Maker after the split (also in Autobio) - but I think you're stretching the possibility a bit far there, given the context in Autobio. Morrissey did have a fixation with the Moors murders and mentions Saddleworth many times, but it's not really a place that you'd go for a casual stroll with your mates. Maybe he went walking there with someone else and just left that out of the story and put Johnny in...but IMO that's not very likely.
"Still Ill" was just a reference to the timeframe, The Smiths period. I don't think that song is about anyone, actually - the 'sore lips' bit is lifted from Viv Nicholson's autobiography Spend, Spend, Spend ("We walked for miles... right under the iron bridge and down underneath it. We were kissing away and getting really sore lips from biting one another.") and at that time he often plagiarised films and poetry for inspiration. The line "Society owes me a living" supposedly came from Myra Hindley.
Until you explain to me while he explicitly writes about his school days rather than it just being a whimsical stanza I'm not buying what you're selling.
If you want to talk about Auto, in the book he mentions Jon Daley turning up to one of his school sports events and I think he makes it fairly clear that in his pre-Smiths days he did a lot of walking around all parts of Manchester. Is it so unbelievable to you that he might've taken walks on the moors in his teenage years? Apparently so.
The lyrics in 'Still Ill' were clearly written about a time pre-Smiths.
its that snoggled with dudes, 45 min at a time. yet claims hes NOT gay.
since then, he progressed to having botox and wigs, chick stuff.
AND RECENTLY HE HAS TAKEN TO WEARING MAGENTA PANTALOONS AND WOMEN MASCARA
if DramaLePew is not gay nobody is.
Definitely worth checking out.
See here at 8pm UK time:
Regards,
FWD.
Not to mention the "12 years on..." lyric matching the timeframe of when they met and the fact that Melville wrote "John Marr and Other Sailors" before "Billy Budd."
I am aware of the fact that the song was recorded in 1993. But it was scheduled for a release in 1994.@Amy @GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn
In this older thread ....
Morrissey's "Vauxhall and I" at 20 - The Mouth Magazine
That is a really excellent article. Thanks for the link. P.www.morrissey-solo.com
Young and alive said ...
“I like how they ponder if Billy Budd is about Johnny Marr - the chronology (1982 - 1994 "twelve years on") etc.
Personally I've always thought that was the case.”
And Jamie replied ....
“It's very tidy, but the song was written at latest in early 1993 and recorded that summer. By that timeline, we're back to 1981 which predated JM's first visit to Morrissey's house.
It may not refer to anyone real for all we know. The Melville reference could be a red herring.”
Twelve is one syllable, eleven is three. Call it poetic license. The "job application" line is one of the funniest Morrissey's ever written regarding The Smiths and the curse of having a legacy.@Amy @GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn
In this older thread ....
Morrissey's "Vauxhall and I" at 20 - The Mouth Magazine
That is a really excellent article. Thanks for the link. P.www.morrissey-solo.com
Young and alive said ...
“I like how they ponder if Billy Budd is about Johnny Marr - the chronology (1982 - 1994 "twelve years on") etc.
Personally I've always thought that was the case.”
And Jamie replied ....
“It's very tidy, but the song was written at latest in early 1993 and recorded that summer. By that timeline, we're back to 1981 which predated JM's first visit to Morrissey's house.
It may not refer to anyone real for all we know. The Melville reference could be a red herring.”
National Front Disco:
View attachment 56137
@Amy @GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn
In this older thread ....
Morrissey's "Vauxhall and I" at 20 - The Mouth Magazine
That is a really excellent article. Thanks for the link. P.www.morrissey-solo.com
And Jamie replied ....
“It's very tidy, but the song was written at latest in early 1993 and recorded that summer. By that timeline, we're back to 1981 which predated JM's first visit to Morrissey's house.
It may not refer to anyone real for all we know. The Melville reference could be a red herring.”
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this one. Has there been any indication in the past that Morrissey wanted the band to have a designated name?