Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several times?

Maurice E

Junior Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Understandable loyalty to the Smiths cause in many of these responses but there seems to be some delusion about how many people actually like the sound of Morrissey’s voice, even when he’s singing a primetime, genius Smiths song. Remember that in the ludicrously-hyped ‘You Are The Quarry’ era, Morrissey only just managed to sell out the MEN arena i.e. 20,000 seats (with no world tour promised at the time). And you seriously think he and Marr can attract a quarter of a million?
I was looking up the stats at the weekend – amazed to see that none of the Smiths studio albums has even gone platinum (300,000) after all these years, but all the Stone Roses ones have.
Many people strongly dislike Morrissey. As just one component of the Smiths, their dislike for him becomes less important, but his persona and singing voice are still hugely off-putting to vast numbers of people.
You can't really hate the Stone Roses. Ian Brown's voice (in its recorded form at least) is an inoffensive, gentle thing and, combined with John Squire's beautiful guitar melodies and incredibly euphoric choruses, the songs are irresistible to vast numbers of people.
Remember that at festivals where Morrissey plays, but doesn’t headline, there is always a mass exodus of people before he comes on (off to see Radiohead or Razorlight, or whoever) leaving Morrissey with a tiny stub of a festival audience, even though it’s common knowledge that he plays plenty of Smiths stuff. Many, if not most, people into what you might call ‘indie’ music are simply not Smiths fans (although, of course, a fair percentage are).
The profile of Morrissey/Marr is huge in the world of the music media, but their appeal is much smaller in the real world. A reformed Morrissey/Marr would obviously attract a much larger audience than ‘solo’ Morrissey (or Marr Healers) but not on the scale of the Stone Roses.
Anyway, let's hope the unprecedented demand for the Stone Roses concerts causes Marr and Morrissey to reconsider their future, and do something together, preferably in a line-up that does not include Joyce Michael and Andy Berk.

PS Joe Frady, splendid post and, yes, I’m pretty certain Marr/Morrissey could call themselves the Smiths. A promoter actually said as much a few years ago i.e. that from their point of view, a ‘Smiths tour’ need only comprise Morrissey and Marr from the original line up. I don’t see Nirvana as being the key breakthrough act, though. They were an American rock group, albeit a slightly grungey one. Blur were the first British ‘indie’ band to sell a million, and that was back in 2004 (and didn’t Damon bang on about it!) closely followed by Oasis then Pulp.
 

Oh my god. it's Robby!

spontaneously luminescent
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

honestly, does anyone really think that (most of)The Smiths will not do a reunion tour eventually?
everybody does one, unless one of the principals in the band dies
and let's face it, the only money in music anymore is in tours, eventually, the money involved will be enough
end of story, as far as I am concerned
I just hope it does not happen for another couple of years, so I can afford to see them :D
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Understandable loyalty to the Smiths cause in many of these responses but there seems to be some delusion about how many people actually like the sound of Morrissey’s voice, even when he’s singing a primetime, genius Smiths song. Remember that in the ludicrously-hyped ‘You Are The Quarry’ era, Morrissey only just managed to sell out the MEN arena i.e. 20,000 seats (with no world tour promised at the time). And you seriously think he and Marr can attract a quarter of a million?
I was looking up the stats at the weekend – amazed to see that none of the Smiths studio albums has even gone platinum (300,000) after all these years, but all the Stone Roses ones have.
Many people strongly dislike Morrissey. As just one component of the Smiths, their dislike for him becomes less important, but his persona and singing voice are still hugely off-putting to vast numbers of people.
You can't really hate the Stone Roses. Ian Brown's voice (in its recorded form at least) is an inoffensive, gentle thing and, combined with John Squire's beautiful guitar melodies and incredibly euphoric choruses, the songs are irresistible to vast numbers of people.
Remember that at festivals where Morrissey plays, but doesn’t headline, there is always a mass exodus of people before he comes on (off to see Radiohead or Razorlight, or whoever) leaving Morrissey with a tiny stub of a festival audience, even though it’s common knowledge that he plays plenty of Smiths stuff. Many, if not most, people into what you might call ‘indie’ music are simply not Smiths fans (although, of course, a fair percentage are).
The profile of Morrissey/Marr is huge in the world of the music media, but their appeal is much smaller in the real world. A reformed Morrissey/Marr would obviously attract a much larger audience than ‘solo’ Morrissey (or Marr Healers) but not on the scale of the Stone Roses.
Anyway, let's hope the unprecedented demand for the Stone Roses concerts causes Marr and Morrissey to reconsider their future, and do something together, preferably in a line-up that does not include Joyce Michael and Andy Berk.

PS Joe Frady, splendid post and, yes, I’m pretty certain Marr/Morrissey could call themselves the Smiths. A promoter actually said as much a few years ago i.e. that from their point of view, a ‘Smiths tour’ need only comprise Morrissey and Marr from the original line up. I don’t see Nirvana as being the key breakthrough act, though. They were an American rock group, albeit a slightly grungey one. Blur were the first British ‘indie’ band to sell a million, and that was back in 2004 (and didn’t Damon bang on about it!) closely followed by Oasis then Pulp.
I guess the importance one places on a reunion is dependant on how one views Morrisseys career. As I said previously I cannot see the point unless you view it as a money making exercise. Moz has worked with various collaborators since Marr. Why would he want to go back? The versions he does of Smiths songs are fine. The Smiths happened in the early 1980's, they could not happen again in the 2010's. If they did do it, it would be somethings else, it would be something motivated by financial concerns. Surely the best thing for Moz fans would be great new album. Working with Marr would be a diversion.
 

Bluebirds

Well-Known Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Have to disagree with the post citing record sales as evidence of The Smiths limited mass--market appeal. One of the best (or worst) aspects of popular culture in the 21st century is the easy availability of getting hold of it. I don't thinly you can measure The Smiths influence merely on units shifted.

The other reason why they would now sell out Wembley is the tragic emphasis on nostalgia in modern culture. Hence you'd have a significant proportion of any 60k crowd there for the "hits" eg This Charming Man and How Soon Is Now. Which supports my belief that you can't judge The Smiths popularity in 2011 on records sold
 

Maurice E

Junior Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Moz has worked with various collaborators since Marr. Why would he want to go back? The versions he does of Smiths songs are fine.
The versions he does of Smiths songs is fine? Refreshing to hear such a view, round here! And I actually agree with you. With the exception of the re-arranged This Charming Man, I love hearing his and the band's renditions of the Smiths songs. I Know It's Over at Brixton Academy this summer was an absolute dream.
Err, why reform though? Well, i think we'd nearly all agree that the quality of the Smiths songs is generally a lot higher than the 'solo' stuff (especially latter day), so we'd be guaranteed 20 amazing songs in each set. That's a benefit for the fans though.
As for Morrissey benefitting - well, he would get to play to much bigger venues, and we all know how much he likes to sell out his concerts! A 'solo' Morrissey could never sell out a 75,000 stadium whereas he and Marr probably could (just not three times). Although I would be pretty keen to see the Stone Roses live, I've never been bothered about seeing Ian Brown - I just don't really like what I've heard of his solo stuff. I guess that's how a lot of people feel about Morrissey and the Smiths...
 

Maurice E

Junior Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Have to disagree with the post citing record sales as evidence of The Smiths limited mass--market appeal. One of the best (or worst) aspects of popular culture in the 21st century is the easy availability of getting hold of it. I don't thinly you can measure The Smiths influence merely on units shifted.
The other reason why they would now sell out Wembley is the tragic emphasis on nostalgia in modern culture. Hence you'd have a significant proportion of any 60k crowd there for the "hits" eg This Charming Man and How Soon Is Now. Which supports my belief that you can't judge The Smiths popularity in 2011 on records sold

I agree that Morrissey&Marr could indeed sell out Wembley or Heaton Park or any other 75,000-100,000 venue - just not three times. The Stone Roses and The Smiths were both only moderately successful in terms of album sales but ludicrously successful in terms of influence and media profile. So, yes, they would both be much bigger now but the Stone Roses would be on a different scale for all the reasons I mentioned. As mentioned before, just look at the way all the floating voters disappear in their thousands, during the minutes before Morrissey appears at an indie festival. Tons of indie folk can't stand him or the Smiths.
However, we'll never really know until/unless Morrissey and Marr do decide to reconvene, at which point I'll be happy to be proved wrong!

By the way, even at current Morrissey shows, vast numbers (I'd say at least half) only know the Smiths songs and a couple of Morrissey singles (Every Day and First of the Gang). Just take a look round at the audience next time, and see how few are singing along to anything else...
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

The versions he does of Smiths songs is fine? Refreshing to hear such a view, round here! And I actually agree with you. With the exception of the re-arranged This Charming Man, I love hearing his and the band's renditions of the Smiths songs. I Know It's Over at Brixton Academy this summer was an absolute dream.
Err, why reform though? Well, i think we'd nearly all agree that the quality of the Smiths songs is generally a lot higher than the 'solo' stuff (especially latter day), so we'd be guaranteed 20 amazing songs in each set. That's a benefit for the fans though.
As for Morrissey benefitting - well, he would get to play to much bigger venues, and we all know how much he likes to sell out his concerts! A 'solo' Morrissey could never sell out a 75,000 stadium whereas he and Marr probably could (just not three times). Although I would be pretty keen to see the Stone Roses live, I've never been bothered about seeing Ian Brown - I just don't really like what I've heard of his solo stuff. I guess that's how a lot of people feel about Morrissey and the Smiths...
I agree with you that Moz's This Charming Man could be a weak interpretation (although it is growing on me).
If I may I'd like to posit the opposing view on the reunion, sure Moz and Marr could do 20 old Smiths songs, but why would Moz want to? He is a solo artist with a wealth of material and, hopefully, focused on his next album. It would be demeaning for both of them to become a jukebox doing the 'old hits'. Surely this is why we like Moz, he does not rest on his laurels or do 08's cabaret. Sure it would make him a packet but he's already turned down £40m. (Christ, there's not much I wouldn't do for that).
Finally, I think his solo stuff is fine and as good as the Smiths and I guess this is really the point where we disagree.
 

2-J

Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

I agree that a Stone Roses reunion is a bigger deal commercially than a Smiths one would be. Stone Roses have more mainstream appeal. Who can say exactly.. I'm sure they could sell out a couple of nights at Heaton Park.. or at least one, plus a massive arena tour and festivals.
 

kyleleonard

Jeff Buckley Is God
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Bet loads of the Stone Roses crowd are hipsters who are only going because it's 'cool' to their friends.
 

2-J

Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Probably, but then of course a Smiths crowd would contain as many of those.. or more!!
 

Anaesthesine

Angel of Distemper
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

It's an applicable scenario in the sense that the Roses were the next 'big' band post-Smiths, who were never actually 'big'. Before Nirvana you had indie big or you had shit big, ie the stuff that shed loads of people actually bought. After Nirvana you just had big. No alternative anymore, no indie, everything just became sucked into the mainstream and packaged, compartmentalised and sold as indie/alternative. After Nirvana, 'indie' big meant Oasis at Wembley. Stadium, not Arena. We've now had twenty years of this regime, although it's pretty much at the hiding-in-a-sewer stage thanks to to the internet,etc.

PS Joe Frady... I don’t see Nirvana as being the key breakthrough act, though. They were an American rock group, albeit a slightly grungey one. Blur were the first British ‘indie’ band to sell a million, and that was back in 2004 (and didn’t Damon bang on about it!) closely followed by Oasis then Pulp.

I think Joe got right: Nirvana changed everything (at least here in the US). The seismic shift was immediate and palpable. There was much resentment in the underground/indie music scene at the time: everything became a commodity, and things were never the same again.
 

2-J

Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

I'm not sure how relevant Nirvana is in an analysis of the British side.

Wasn't Spike Island ( Stone Roses gig, 30,000 attendance ) supposed to be the important precursor for how big Britpop could become?

Nirvana never even played any 'big gigs' in the UK apart from the Reading Festival headline slot.
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

I'm not sure how relevant Nirvana is in an analysis of the British side.

Wasn't Spike Island ( Stone Roses gig, 30,000 attendance ) supposed to be the important precursor for how big Britpop could become?

Nirvana never even played any 'big gigs' in the UK apart from the Reading Festival headline slot.
I know it's off the point, but surely the elephant in the room is that both the Stone Roses and Nirvana were OK bands that did well because they had the right sound at the right time. In retrospect they are both rather dull. The Smiths, on the other hand, were great and still sound great.
 

Anaesthesine

Angel of Distemper
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Interesting that Joe should bring up Nirvana in a general analysis of the meaning of "indie" though. They were definitely THE game-changers here.

I would hazard a guess that a Morrissey/Marr reunion would be a HUGE deal in the US. Music nerds love The Stone Roses, but Morrissey and Marr command another kind of following altogether.

I know it's off the point, but surely the elephant in the room is that both the Stone Roses and Nirvana were OK bands that did well because they had the right sound at the right time. In retrospect they are both rather dull. The Smiths, on the other hand, were great and still sound great.

Rather a leading topic on a Morrissey forum. I tend to agree with you though. :)

Edit: Actually, Nirvana were a great band that have aged into MOR, whereas The Smiths still offend. :thumb:
 
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Irregular Regular

Forget my fate.
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

I know it's off the point, but surely the elephant in the room is that both the Stone Roses and Nirvana were OK bands that did well because they had the right sound at the right time. In retrospect they are both rather dull. The Smiths, on the other hand, were great and still sound great.

I have to disagree Peter.
The Smiths were great and they still are, however The Stone Roses were never dull.
Their 1st album still sounds fresh today.
The Stone Roses released one of the best debut albums of all time, in fact one of the best albums of all time full stop.
Shame they couldn't keep up that very high standard though...
 

Peterb

Well-Known Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

I have to disagree Peter.
The Smiths were great and they still are, however The Stone Roses were never dull.
Their 1st album still sounds fresh today.
The Stone Roses released one of the best debut albums of all time, in fact one of the best albums of all time full stop.
Shame they couldn't keep up that very high standard though...
OK Irregular Regular, I'll give it another listen and re-evaluate.
By the way, thank you for the manner in which you disagreed. I was expecting the usual tirade of insults. Just because we differ we don't have to insult each other.
 

jm26

Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

I agree that Morrissey&Marr could indeed sell out Wembley or Heaton Park or any other 75,000-100,000 venue - just not three times.

When you say 'Morrissey&Marr', do you mean The Smiths? Or are you making a distinction there?

The question was specifically about Heaton Park, and that's obviously significant in that it's in Manchester! To think that The Stone Roses could sell out 3 nights at Heaton Park but The Smiths couldn't is completely laughable, and I presume you're not Manc?

The vast majority of people I know doing Stone Roses would be at a Smiths reunion, and then there's also a whole other audience who would go to The Smiths, but not The Roses.

Though it would be a similar crowd make-up overall...40 year olds re-living their youth, along with the younger generations who have been brought up on both bands, for whom 'This Charming Man' is as popular/'cool' as 'I Am The Resurrection'.
 

murder and desire

Junior Member
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Of course Morrissey and Marr could out sell the The Roses. I dont mind the Roses but the truth is they are very over rated, they havent changed one thing in music- apart not really.
The Roses are also more of a local concern compared to M and M. The two Ms would sell well all over the world where as The Roses are really just like Take That, they do well at home, in parts of europe and asia but thats it.

The trouble is, M and M are a bit old now... to make it work or they havent much time left. That said the Roses look awful.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

Of course Morrissey and Marr could out sell the The Roses. I dont mind the Roses but the truth is they are very over rated, they havent changed one thing in music- apart not really.
The Roses are also more of a local concern compared to M and M. The two Ms would sell well all over the world where as The Roses are really just like Take That, they do well at home, in parts of europe and asia but thats it.

The trouble is, M and M are a bit old now... to make it work or they havent much time left. That said the Roses look awful.

I dunno, Johnny still looks great. Our Moz looks a bit more weathered by the years, but I don't think it would make much difference. I would rather they write new songs together than just knock out the old stuff, truthfully.
 

CrystalGeezer

My secret's my enzyme.
Re: Could a reformed Smiths (or a Morrissey & Marr) sell out Heaton Park several time

I dunno, Johnny still looks great. Our Moz looks a bit more weathered by the years, but I don't think it would make much difference. I would rather they write new songs together than just knock out the old stuff, truthfully.

Hair dye and botox does wonders for weathering.
 
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