Dennis Herring (producer) / Twitter - Extraordinary story about the Smiths' songwriting and recording

This is something I've never heard before. The story is told on Twitter by Dennis Herring, who produced Modest Mouse.

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Money Changes Everything:
Goddard calls it a 'choice',
SPIN, June '88 asserted:

"Clearly Johnny Marr needed other outlets for his guitarwork. Although occasional solos crept into songs like “Shoplifters of the World Unite” and “Sheila Take a Bow,” the crafted instrumentals that graced several Smiths’ B-sides disappeared. Rumor has it that Morrissey opposed their inclusion or refused to write lyrics for them, although Morrissey claims that “there was never any political maneuvering. It was never a battle of power between Johnny and myself. The very assumption that a Smiths instrumental track left Morrissey upstairs stamping his feet and kicking the furniture was untrue.“

Still, Morrissey refused to write lyrics for “Money Changes Everything,” which, after the Smiths’ demise, passed into Bryan Ferry’s hands and became “The Right Stuff” (the first single on Bête Noire)."


Oscillate Wildly:
"Surprisingly, the concept of a vocal-free Smiths track came from Morrissey rather than Marr. ‘I suggested that “Oscillate Wildly” should be an instrumental,’ the singer revealed. ‘Up until that point Johnny had very little interest in non-vocal tracks … I totally approved but, obviously, I didn’t physically contribute.’ As Marr verifies, ‘There was never any plan for it to have lyrics. It was always going to be an instrumental and Morrissey encouraged me all the way.’"

Daize Train:
"Marr wrote it – as always – in the hope that Morrissey would provide lyrics. According to the singer, ROUGH TRADE’s Geoff Travis had tried to pressurise him into providing words for the tune, insisting that the result could be The Smiths’ first number one. ‘[But] I thought it was the weakest thing Johnny had ever done,’ explained Morrissey. ‘I said, “No, Geoff, it’s not right.”’ Producer John PORTER also regretted Morrissey’s vetoing of the tune (‘It could have made a great song’) though agreed that as an instrumental it was ‘a bit of a throwaway’."

Regards,
FWD.
 
Money Changes Everything:
Goddard calls it a 'choice',
SPIN, June '88 asserted:

"Clearly Johnny Marr needed other outlets for his guitarwork. Although occasional solos crept into songs like “Shoplifters of the World Unite” and “Sheila Take a Bow,” the crafted instrumentals that graced several Smiths’ B-sides disappeared. Rumor has it that Morrissey opposed their inclusion or refused to write lyrics for them, although Morrissey claims that “there was never any political maneuvering. It was never a battle of power between Johnny and myself. The very assumption that a Smiths instrumental track left Morrissey upstairs stamping his feet and kicking the furniture was untrue.“

Still, Morrissey refused to write lyrics for “Money Changes Everything,” which, after the Smiths’ demise, passed into Bryan Ferry’s hands and became “The Right Stuff” (the first single on Bête Noire)."


Oscillate Wildly:
"Surprisingly, the concept of a vocal-free Smiths track came from Morrissey rather than Marr. ‘I suggested that “Oscillate Wildly” should be an instrumental,’ the singer revealed. ‘Up until that point Johnny had very little interest in non-vocal tracks … I totally approved but, obviously, I didn’t physically contribute.’ As Marr verifies, ‘There was never any plan for it to have lyrics. It was always going to be an instrumental and Morrissey encouraged me all the way.’"

Daize Train:
"Marr wrote it – as always – in the hope that Morrissey would provide lyrics. According to the singer, ROUGH TRADE’s Geoff Travis had tried to pressurise him into providing words for the tune, insisting that the result could be The Smiths’ first number one. ‘[But] I thought it was the weakest thing Johnny had ever done,’ explained Morrissey. ‘I said, “No, Geoff, it’s not right.”’ Producer John PORTER also regretted Morrissey’s vetoing of the tune (‘It could have made a great song’) though agreed that as an instrumental it was ‘a bit of a throwaway’."

Regards,
FWD.
Yes I know of those three songs, I was replying to Dirk Blaggard's comment reproduced below, where he suggests Morrissey did a couple of accapella songs lol

"..Also Morrissey famously refused to even put music on a couple of songs (or was it one?)"
 
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Yes I know of those three songs, I was replying to Dirk Blaggard's comment reproduced below, where he suggests Morrissey did a couple of accupella songs lol

"..Also Morrissey famously refused to even put music on a couple of songs (or was it one?)"
Just like arguing?
'Famously' = Smiths.
That quote appears to be in a Smiths context. The whole of that reply is about The Smiths. Does not refer to any a capella and appears to be referring to exactly what I've posted background information about.
FWD.
 
Just like arguing?
'Famously' = Smiths.
That quote appears to be in a Smiths context. The whole of that reply is about The Smiths. Does not refer to any a capella and appears to be referring to exactly what I've posted background information about.
FWD.
Arguing? I was taking the piss.
Re-read the two lines I quoted again..
the bit where he says Morrissey refused to put MUSIC on a couple of songs.....
 
I'd happily look at a capella Morrissey tunes post '87. I'd guess 'music' should read 'lyrics' as the end of the comment ('he thought the music spoke for itself'), wouldn't make sense if it was minus music would it? (The punchline right?).
I have read many accounts of Oscillate Wildly over the years that basically match: Morrissey loved it without lyrics and it 'spoke for itself'.
Oh yeah... 'lol'.
FWD.
 
Money Changes Everything:
Goddard calls it a 'choice',
SPIN, June '88 asserted:

"Clearly Johnny Marr needed other outlets for his guitarwork. Although occasional solos crept into songs like “Shoplifters of the World Unite” and “Sheila Take a Bow,” the crafted instrumentals that graced several Smiths’ B-sides disappeared. Rumor has it that Morrissey opposed their inclusion or refused to write lyrics for them, although Morrissey claims that “there was never any political maneuvering. It was never a battle of power between Johnny and myself. The very assumption that a Smiths instrumental track left Morrissey upstairs stamping his feet and kicking the furniture was untrue.“

Still, Morrissey refused to write lyrics for “Money Changes Everything,” which, after the Smiths’ demise, passed into Bryan Ferry’s hands and became “The Right Stuff” (the first single on Bête Noire)."


Oscillate Wildly:
"Surprisingly, the concept of a vocal-free Smiths track came from Morrissey rather than Marr. ‘I suggested that “Oscillate Wildly” should be an instrumental,’ the singer revealed. ‘Up until that point Johnny had very little interest in non-vocal tracks … I totally approved but, obviously, I didn’t physically contribute.’ As Marr verifies, ‘There was never any plan for it to have lyrics. It was always going to be an instrumental and Morrissey encouraged me all the way.’"

Daize Train:
"Marr wrote it – as always – in the hope that Morrissey would provide lyrics. According to the singer, ROUGH TRADE’s Geoff Travis had tried to pressurise him into providing words for the tune, insisting that the result could be The Smiths’ first number one. ‘[But] I thought it was the weakest thing Johnny had ever done,’ explained Morrissey. ‘I said, “No, Geoff, it’s not right.”’ Producer John PORTER also regretted Morrissey’s vetoing of the tune (‘It could have made a great song’) though agreed that as an instrumental it was ‘a bit of a throwaway’."

Regards,
FWD.
I miss the days when Morrissey's standards were so high that he would challenge even rare, once-a-blue-moon misfires like The Draize Train - something he probably wanted to bin - and then be challenged back, ultimately keeping the instrumental. That alone proves they were two equal partners. Mind-boggling to think that just a few years later, he was writing lyrics for dross that made Draize look like a masterpiece.
 
:rolleyes:
i dont think you can call the gibberish :handpointright::guardsman::handpointleft: has been making
the last 30 yrs lyrics.
:hammer:
 
I miss the days when Morrissey's standards were so high that he would challenge even rare, once-a-blue-moon misfires like The Draize Train - something he probably wanted to bin - and then be challenged back, ultimately keeping the instrumental. That alone proves they were two equal partners. Mind-boggling to think that just a few years later, he was writing lyrics for dross that made Draize look like a masterpiece.
Good points. No question, The Draize Train is definitely not one of Johnny's finest, but I like the live version on Rank. It seems to have a stepped-up enthusiasm that the recorded version lacks.

Can't help but wonder if Morrissey at all tried to write lyrics for it and then said screw it... or he really had no interest from the get-go?
 
Perhaps "The Draize Train " might have been too much a "How Soon is now " feel for Morrissey to lyric over in his mind...
 
Good points. No question, The Draize Train is definitely not one of Johnny's finest, but I like the live version on Rank. It seems to have a stepped-up enthusiasm that the recorded version lacks.

Can't help but wonder if Morrissey at all tried to write lyrics for it and then said screw it... or he really had no interest from the get-go?
To me, the Rank version is the official version. I always thought it was great and am surprised to hear some people don't like it.
 
What songs are they?
well they were released as instrumentals B sides and B Ferry put words to one
Its no secret
Yes I know of those three songs, I was replying to Dirk Blaggard's comment reproduced below, where he suggests Morrissey did a couple of accapella songs lol

"..Also Morrissey famously refused to even put music on a couple of songs (or was it one?)"
Well, I wasn't suggesting he was aiming at acapella, at all. Though granted, it was a sloppy sentence. I was carrying a couple of coffees when I wrote it , so I can see why you inferred that - what I meant was Morrissey refused to put his VOCAL music on Johnny's songs .

Thankfully FMD has a keener sense of meaning.

Actually, I think you were being deliberately obtuse ... Nobody would suggest Moz would do an acapella- which , you know
 
Good points. No question, The Draize Train is definitely not one of Johnny's finest, but I like the live version on Rank. It seems to have a stepped-up enthusiasm that the recorded version lacks.

Can't help but wonder if Morrissey at all tried to write lyrics for it and then said screw it... or he really had no interest from the get-go?
Possibly, a similar reason as to why he turned down Bernard Butlers Yes . He couldn't do anything with it

Yes, was out of his vocal range and TDT was ..... Who knows .
 
I miss the days when Morrissey's standards were so high that he would challenge even rare, once-a-blue-moon misfires like The Draize Train - something he probably wanted to bin - and then be challenged back, ultimately keeping the instrumental. That alone proves they were two equal partners. Mind-boggling to think that just a few years later, he was writing lyrics for dross that made Draize look like a masterpiece.
Well, this is true but he didn't have to put up with Johnnys gangs behind the back gossip. So, maybe there was at least that.

It would have been nice to think If he stayed with Johnny, he would have stayed as sharp as he was , for sure Johnny would have called him on a few things, would have protected him from a few things but the Moz we have now was always the moz we were gonna have.
I always thought " stay with your own kind, and I'll stay with mine" was the kind of mindset that was always gonna go this way, his England was always gonna clash more and more as time created corpses out of all our passed todays

Getting back to your general catty point, he sung on some bad backing tracks, this is true. The frustration of being a Smiths, Morrissey fan is that you leave most records disappointed as you know he can do way, way better. He just needs the music to excite him.

All this said, He Knows I'd Love To See Him. Last Night M Street Suecdehead, Everyday is like Sunday , November Spawned A Monster , Will Never Marry , Spring Heeled Jin, Now My Heart Is Full Maladjusted and a few more equal the Smiths , I think its objectively fair to say .
Johnny hasn't had one song that even comes close to smiths classic - if he has its not more than two
 
It also goes against most of what Johnny has always stated. That yes Morrissey would sing over what he intended as a break and maybe let a chorus become an instrumental but not sing over everything. Even during his interview in Oxford he said that about the Headmaster Ritual where for example Morrissey leaves a lot of space for the "intro" before singing. Anyway it just doesn't make sense with how the songs are.
 
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