Fiona Dodwell: "How Morrissey outran The Smiths (and why his critics will never admit it)" (February 18, 2021)

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How Morrissey outran The Smiths (and why his critics will never admit it)

Excerpt:

"There’s an emergence of voices rising from the rotting grave of political correctness lately, in a feeble attempt to somehow make Morrissey’s art into nothing more than a shadow of The Smiths. In reality though, to many, he was the beating heart of the much-loved 80s quartet and unlike his bandmates, he became so much more.
There are many voices online using the tired old trope, “I won’t listen to Morrissey because I don’t agree with his views, but I’ll always have The Smiths.” If this sentiment were limited only to the dull echo chambers of anonymous social media users, it might not be so bad. Yet it does not stop there."




Regards,
FWD.


Now linked to by Central:

 
A

Anonymous

Guest
True To You may have been technically shoddy, but it was leaps and bounds ahead of Central. It gave us regularly, clearly worded statements direct from Morrissey (you never had to guess if it was from him or some flunky), and wasn't flooded with random photoshop posts, or any random shit mentioning Morrissey that happened to pass Sam's radar. We also got a few great Q&As, think they might have been yearly events? Julia stayed in the background, and just passed on whatever messages Morrissey had.

I'm sure Sam's heart is in the right place, and he thinks he is helping his uncle, but all he is doing is adding another layer of murkiness, confusion, and random crap that belongs on an fan site, not an official channel.
 
V

Vegan Cro Spirit 444

Guest
Do you have a link to the Johnny Marr bot site?

I don't think Morrissey is friends with Johnny Marr anymore. I don't know when they last had any contact with each other maybe in 2008.


:straightface:

not even his own trolls go there.
you would think his trolls would be over there at the cometry spotify playlist instead of being here 24/7.:blushing:
of course Moz avoids him, he is devious and truculent. look at who is friend is, Hooky.:thumbsdown:
 
A

Anti-Moz God of Moz-Solo

Guest
Not that anyone cares, but I've been following the debate between @Ketamine Sun, @Amy and @Surface. Very interesting stuff, albeit not overly civil, shall we say.

Even though I prefer a balanced outlook and am no stranger to criticising my favorite artists when they make music I don't like or behave like idiots, I think Ketamine has a strong point. Personally, and I've said this before, I could never muster the energy to come to a fan forum on a (give or take) daily basis just to post negative criticism about its subject. That would suck the life right out of me. I think Surface is a bright guy, and a very nice fella at that, but he seems, in my humble opinion, way too immersed in the negative side of things. I would love it if he was to engage in, for example, the A-Z threads, and talk about all the songs he love.

Surely the negativity must take more out of you than what you get in return? Does it not fill you with "bad energies"?

Now, mind you, I'm not refusing anyone to post whatever they feel like. You do you, as they say. These are just my two cents.
🤣🤣🤣
 
N

No 27

Guest
Yes, but you used Morrissey’s behavior as an example to justify your own.


I’m sorry Morrissey has such a powerful influence over you.


Reread your post #181

You basically said that if it’s alright for Morrissey to criticize people then it’s alright for you to criticize people.

He meant you make no objection to Morrissey endlessly criticising other people, but you complain about people being critical of Morrissey.

Since it requires to be explained, Surface is highlighting your hypocrisy.
 
A

Anti-Moz God of Moz-Solo

Guest
Do you like the Morrissey Central website? I personally like the site it is a way for Morrissey and others connected to him like his nephew Sam to express themselves. I believe that is was set up by Morrissey's former record company?

The True To You.net website was amazing! I miss those days when Julia Riley was around. I never met Julia and I don't know her on a personal level.

Sam is a photographer and he understands modern technical stuff. I think he understands social media and how it works.

In LA they have a Morrissey Day once a year. This shows how much more Morrissey is respected in the USA than he is in his home country the UK. I love America and the American way of life and their positivity. I believe that Julia Riley is American. I wonder if Julia was there when Morrissey Day in LA was formally declared and there was a ceremony for it and Morrissey was there.

Morrissey gives me hope in a world which can feel so dark and lonely. Morrissey sings about rejection and being different. Morrissey was talking about depression and mental health long before it was fashionable to do so and folks like Robbie Williams got on board. Morrissey is definitely not a fascist. He supports LGBTQ+ rights for one thing and he supports Israel and Jewish people. I find it interesting that Morrissey doesn't like Donald Trump.
😂😂😂
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><><><><>
He meant you make no objection to Morrissey endlessly criticising other people, but you complain about people being critical of Morrissey.

Since it requires to be explained, Surface is highlighting your hypocrisy.



Simple. Why would I want to continually again and again object to something Morrissey does like others do on here? Where would that get me? What would be my goal? What do I think I could really achieve by criticizing someone (basically a stranger) that I can’t have a ‘person to person’ conversation with through posting on this site?

How can mine or anyone’s negative opinions criticisms etc help in anyway to change Morrissey if he does not read them, nor does he post here?

It won’t and doesn’t benefit anything or anyone to be negative in that way. So why bother?

Sorry you’re wrong, no ‘hypocrisy’
on my part.

Btw Surface basically said that if Morrissey can criticize people then it’s alright for others to criticize people. And I don’t believe that two wrongs make a right. But of course he’s entitled to voice his opinion just as Morrissey is, but I don’t think it’ll bring them to a better place or give them peace of mind, unfortunately.
 
C

Cock Lesnar

Guest
It would have been reported on this website. I guess I must be confusing Julia with a different 'superfan' - I'm sure Morrissey paid his respects from the stage not so long ago to a female fan who had passed away, and who had been a regular front row attendee at this concerts.
You’re thinking of the “Queue Nazi” who used to post here as “Mel Torment”. Moz eulogized her at a gig and since then it’s been the dream of every delusional extremist fan that Moz mention their death. As has been seen lately, Moz now only cares to speak on the deaths of old movie stars and musicians, not his fans. 😂

One of my prized possessions is a hand written queue list that I took from Mel when she tried to control who could and couldn’t stand at the front of the queue outside the venue. She failed that night. Those of us with strength and speed made it to the front of the barrier without having to spend the previous night on the sidewalk outside the venue.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
Not that anyone cares, but I've been following the debate between @Ketamine Sun, @Amy and @Surface. Very interesting stuff, albeit not overly civil, shall we say.

Even though I prefer a balanced outlook and am no stranger to criticising my favorite artists when they make music I don't like or behave like idiots, I think Ketamine has a strong point. Personally, and I've said this before, I could never muster the energy to come to a fan forum on a (give or take) daily basis just to post negative criticism about its subject. That would suck the life right out of me. I think Surface is a bright guy, and a very nice fella at that, but he seems, in my humble opinion, way too immersed in the negative side of things. I would love it if he was to engage in, for example, the A-Z threads, and talk about all the songs he love.

Surely the negativity must take more out of you than what you get in return? Does it not fill you with "bad energies"?

Now, mind you, I'm not refusing anyone to post whatever they feel like. You do you, as they say. These are just my two cents.
Who is actually doing that though, really? Who are these faceless 'haters', who is continually, relentlessly negative? Me? @Surface ? We don't hate Moz. It's possible to be critical about a particular subject in one thread and then praise songs that come up in the A-Z, or go and share something in the Collector's area, there are so many ways to engage.

Being critical at times doesn't equate to blindly hating everything... that's all it is. I think it's the arguing itself leads to 'bad energies', not criticising Southpaw Grammar or some poor album artwork. But just saying, "Well criticising is unhealthy, you should move on" - that doesn't support discussion.
 
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M

Morrissey fan

Guest
:straightface:

not even his own trolls go there.
you would think his trolls would be over there at the cometry spotify playlist instead of being here 24/7.:blushing:
of course Moz avoids him, he is devious and truculent. look at who is friend is, Hooky.:thumbsdown:
Wow! Johnny Marr is friends with Peter Hook. Peter Hook is also friends with Andy Rourke. Johnny Marr is friends with Andy Rourke from way back. That means they are all friends.

Why is Johnny Marr friends with Morrissey haters? I thought he was better than that. Johnny Marr doesn't need to hang out with the New Order lot or the Pet Shop Boys to be relevant.

I wonder when Morrissey and Johnny Marr last had contact with each other maybe in 2008 not sure? It is sad when friendships come to an end.
 
N

No 27

Guest
Simple. Why would I want to continually again and again object to something Morrissey does like others do on here? Where would that get me? What would be my goal? What do I think I could really achieve by criticizing someone (basically a stranger) that I can’t have a ‘person to person’ conversation with through posting on this site?

How can mine or anyone’s negative opinions criticisms etc help in anyway to change Morrissey if he does not read them, nor does he post here?

It won’t and doesn’t benefit anything or anyone to be negative in that way. So why bother?

Sorry you’re wrong, no ‘hypocrisy’
on my part.

Btw Surface basically said that if Morrissey can criticize people then it’s alright for others to criticize people. And I don’t believe that two wrongs make a right. But of course he’s entitled to voice his opinion just as Morrissey is, but I don’t think it’ll bring them to a better place or give them peace of mind, unfortunately.
Being critical of the things that other people say or do on a public message board is valuable in its own right, whether the object of criticism is, or isn't, aware of the criticism. I don't suppose it's Surface's, or anybody else's, intention to communicate with Morrissey in order to change him. I would guess that he and other people who criticise Morrissey care about the things he says and they want their to be a record of their opinions. If this leads some other people to be a little less slavish in their adoration of Morrissey, and if it encourages people to engage their critical faculties, then that's a welcome bonus.

Again, I don't know what Surface actually thinks, but it's pretty clear that he isn't saying he thinks it's okay to be critical of Morrissey because Morrissey is critical of other people. He's saying that you see nothing wrong with Morrissey criticising other people, but challenge people who criticise Morrissey to, at least, provide what you think counts as an unassailable rationale for their criticism. He's pointing out that you hold the people who post here to a different standard to that which you apply in Morrissey's case. He's correct.
 

GirlAfraidWillNeverLearn

The Courage to Get on People's Tits
They should hire a company to set it up, like Driift. They did Nick Cave, James Bay and many others. The company was started by Johnny Marr's manager so he has an "in"!

They could google, for a start.
 
M

Morrissey fan

Guest
They should hire a company to set it up, like Driift. They did Nick Cave, James Bay and many others. The company was started by Johnny Marr's manager so he has an "in"!
Is that Marcus Russell from Ignition Management?
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><><><><>
Being critical of the things that other people say or do on a public message board is valuable in its own right,

Ok, I could agree with that to some degree.

whether the object of criticism is, or isn't, aware of the criticism.

Now there I don’t agree. I believe there is a difference. And I know you give some reasons to why that it may be valuable for some to continually criticize Morrissey, but it still doesn’t make sense to continually post negative opinions every time they disagree with Morrissey and go on and on about it. Say it once and move on, let it go and don’t bring it up again two days, two weeks, two months, two years or more later, just let it go. We know who they are, we know how they feel about Morrissey, it’s clear, just let it go.
And they still haven’t explained why they do it and it seems they never questioned themselves to why they do it, which is why I’ve been asking and offering up at least one reason, but it seems they don’t want to take my reason into consideration or offer up any reason to why they do it and have a civil conversation about it. They basically just shutdown any conversation by labeling me or seeing me as a ‘mozbot’ and so are in that way saying that I’ll never understand why they get triggered by Morrissey’s actions or why they have to continually over and over again vent by posting their opinions about his actions or behavior. But the truth is, I’m asking because I want to understand rather than just come up with my own reasons to why they do what they do, which wouldn’t be fair to do so.


I don't suppose it's Surface's, or anybody else's, intention to communicate with Morrissey in order to change him.

Fine. But he hasn’t answered why he does it.


I would guess that he and other people who criticise Morrissey care about the things he says and they want their to be a record of their opinions.

Interesting. And why would they want there to be a record of their opinions do you think?


If this leads some other people to be a little less slavish in their adoration of Morrissey,

really? Is that such a harmful trait?

Well, if my posts in this thread and elsewhere lead some people to be a little less hateful and look inside themselves to ask themselves why they bother continually posting the kind of negative criticisms that they do, then I’m glad I can be of help to them. Lol.

and if it encourages people to engage their critical faculties, then that's a welcome bonus.

Yes, I’m trying to encourage that here. I think it may be working. I mean, thank you for joining the conversation.

Again, I don't know what Surface actually thinks, but it's pretty clear that he isn't saying he thinks it's okay to be critical of Morrissey because Morrissey is critical of other people.

But don’t you think that it’s wrong or even hypocritical for Surface or anyone to see Morrissey criticizing someone, say that it’s wrong to do so, and yet he or they will come on here and do the same thing? That is, criticize someone else, and not just once or twice, but continually. Do you think that’s right? Is it healthy? Who does it benefit? and in what way? Do two wrongs make a right?
He's saying that you see nothing wrong with Morrissey criticising other people, but challenge people who criticise Morrissey to, at least, provide what you think counts as an unassailable rationale for their criticism.

Well, he sees wrong. He seems to see that just because I don’t criticize Morrissey that must mean I’m giving Morrissey a free pass for his actions. No, and the reason I don’t criticize, I already explained in my first post to you.


He's pointing out that you hold the people who post here to a different standard to that which you apply in Morrissey's case. He's correct.

Sorry, he’s not. Just because I don’t continually criticize Morrissey does NOT mean I hold Morrissey to a different standard. I already said as much and explained to you why I don’t continually criticize or bother to criticize him in my other post to you. I do hold different standards, more or less, to artists than to non-artists and to people that I know personally and strangers as far as having opinions on them, that’s if I care to in the first place or feel that having an opinion at all benefits me or someone else, it usually doesn’t.
 
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King Leer

Leering since '97
I don't know what happened to Julia Riley. She used to run the fan site "True To You". From what I understand she was a wealthy lady she had inheritance money or something like that. I heard that she might of gone through her inheritance money. Maybe she could no longer afford to go on the Morrissey tours?

I don't think it is anything to do with Morrissey's political views as to why she is no longer around. I hope she is well.

I felt that there were people jealous of Julia Riley in the same way that people are now jealous of Fiona Dodwell.
I haven't read the latest (or most of the previous) articles by Fiona Dodwell, but the backlash toward a superfan reminded me of Julia -- as different as the circumstances may be.

Really miss the World of Morrissey from the 90s and 2000s, up to around Refusal...
 

The.Truth.

about Ruth
Ok, I could agree with that to some degree.



Now there I don’t agree. I believe there is a difference. And I know you give some reasons to why that it may be valuable for some to continually criticize Morrissey, but it still doesn’t make sense to continually post negative opinions every time they disagree with Morrissey and go on and on about it. Say it once and move on, let it go and don’t bring it up again two days, two weeks, two months, two years or more later, just let it go. We know who they are, we know how they feel about Morrissey, it’s clear, just let it go.
And they still haven’t explained why they do it and it seems they never questioned themselves to why they do it, which is why I’ve been asking and offering up at least one reason, but it seems they don’t want to take my reason into consideration or offer up any reason to why they do it and have a civil conversation about it. They basically just shutdown any conversation by labeling me or seeing me as a ‘mozbot’ and so are in that way saying that I’ll never understand why they get triggered by Morrissey’s actions or why they have to continually over and over again vent by posting their opinions about his actions or behavior. But the truth is, I’m asking because I want to understand rather than just come up with my own reasons to why they do what they do, which wouldn’t be fair to do so.




Fine. But he hasn’t answered why he does it.




Interesting. And why would they want there to be a record of their opinions do you think?




really? Is that such a harmful trait?

Well, if my posts in this thread and elsewhere lead some people to be a little less hateful and look inside themselves to ask themselves why they bother continually posting the kind of negative criticisms that they do, then I’m glad I can be of help to them. Lol.



Yes, I’m trying to encourage that here. I think it may be working. I mean, thank you for joining the conversation.



But don’t you think that it’s wrong or even hypocritical for Surface or anyone to see Morrissey criticizing someone, say that it’s wrong to do so, and yet he or they will come on here and do the same thing? That is, criticize someone else, and not just once or twice, but continually. Do you think that’s right? Is it healthy? Who does it benefit? and in what way? Do two wrongs make a right?


Well, he sees wrong. He seems to see that just because I don’t criticize Morrissey that must mean I’m giving Morrissey a free pass for his actions. No, and the reason I don’t criticize, I already explained in my first post to you.




Sorry, he’s not. Just because I don’t continually criticize Morrissey does NOT mean I hold Morrissey to a different standard. I already said as much and explained to you why I don’t continually criticize or bother to criticize him in my other post to you. I do hold different standards, more or less, to artists than to non-artists and to people that I know personally and strangers as far as having opinions on them, that’s if I care to in the first place or feel that having an opinion at all benefits me or someone else, it usually doesn’t.
The problem about letting it go is that other people continually bring it up. Morrissey just made one of the best records of his career. People that don't like him had to admit it was a good record.
So maybe people that want to help him out should talk about that instead of bringing up things from the past and "explaining" what he really meant or even promoting the narrative that he's lost his standing and is a victim of "political correctness" or whatever. When people continually say this they don't help him. It gives energy to the idea they're trying to fight against.
 

terrancestamp

Active Member
I think folks here are just a bit jealous that her aims are a little higher than just posting her opinions here on solo everyday.

:p

‘It only hurts because it’s true.’
They are jealous that she is getting attention from M and they are not. They would write 100 articles if they thought M was reading them....all these haters here are really secret lovers! Hiding in plain site on this site as a matter of fact!!
 

Gregor Samsa

I straighten up, and my position is one of hope.
Who is actually doing that though, really? Who are these faceless 'haters', who is continually, relentlessly negative? Me? @Surface ? We don't hate Moz. It's possible to be critical about a particular subject in one thread and then praise songs that come up in the A-Z, or go and share something in the Collector's area, there are so many ways to engage.

Being critical at times doesn't equate to blindly hating everything... that's all it is. I think it's the arguing itself leads to 'bad energies', not criticising Southpaw Grammar or some poor album artwork. But just saying, "Well criticising is unhealthy, you should move on" - that doesn't support discussion.
I never called you - or Surface - a hater. Nor have I said you're blindly hating. You're both much brighter than that, I think. It's just that you two were engaged in the discussion with Ketamine (which is why I singled you out). And you do tend to post mostly quite negative stuff - which, again, is perfectly alright! And everyone should be critical. Like I said, I'm no stranger to that myself. I just feel that it must be draining to mostly focus on the negatives - especially on a fan forum.
 
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