Is Morrissey a hypocrite?

bona2vada

New Member
I was expecting a response like this. :)
And I can see your point. But I can also see mine.
Also, I didn't say my idea wasn't provocative or ethically disputatious. Nor did I say it's realistic.
I don't really see my vegan values flawed by this, as I would never ever eat human meat.
The reason that I don't feel more distaste against this than against wearing animal skin might be that I, in many ways, like animals better than humans.
Maybe I'm nuts. If so, it's ok. I can live with it. :D

Thing is, you say you wear leather because of meat eaters. Meat eaters could argue they eat meat because somebody else is already killing a cow to make shoes and leather from it. In truth, the leather industry feeds the meat industry and vice-versa. The perfect example of a vicious circle.
 

Anker Ignis Fatuus Von K.

Fumbling politeness
Thing is, you say you wear leather because of meat eaters. Meat eaters could argue they eat meat because somebody else is already killing a cow to make shoes and leather from it. In truth, the leather industry feeds the meat industry and vice-versa. The perfect example of a vicious circle.

As I said, I can see all the counter-arguments. I wrote that I'm "taking advantage of an industry that I myself am cursing". Everything you just wrote is very right. :thumb:
The argument I gave isn't very firm and stable, I was pointing out a way of thinking and wanted to see what others think about it.
Maybe I'm a bit hypocritical here in this case and I only use this theory to somehow reassure or soothe myself.
Maybe the theory can mainly show the slight difference between leather and fur that a lot of people aren't aware of.
Anyway, I'm just human, at least I'm vegan, would never ever buy fur, I'm active in animal rights organisations and avoid leather where I can. I really hope that someday (hopefully soon) more neat-looking vegan leather products will be available.
 
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bona2vada

New Member
As I said, I can see all the counter-arguments. I wrote that I'm "taking advantage of an industry that I myself am cursing". Everything you just wrote is very right. :thumb:
The argument I gave isn't very firm and stable, I was pointing out a way of thinking and wanted to see what others think about it.
Maybe I'm a bit hypocritical here in this case and I only use this theory to somehow reassure or soothe myself.
Maybe the theory can mainly show the slight difference between leather and fur that a lot of people aren't aware of.
Anyway, I'm just human, at least I'm vegan, would never ever buy fur, I'm active in animal rights organisations and avoid leather where I can. I really hope that someday (hopefully soon) more neat-looking vegan leather products will be available.

I don't mean to start a fight with you, but how can fashion be more important than killing millions of animals for shoes, bags and belts?
In any case, Veganism is not just about what you eat, but rather how you live. Veganism rejects the use of animal skin and animal byproducts as much as it rejects meat-eating. So I think you are rather a strict vegetarian, but certainly not a vegan. Just a matter of terms :)
 

Anker Ignis Fatuus Von K.

Fumbling politeness
I don't mean to start a fight with you, but how can fashion be more important than killing millions of animals for shoes, bags and belts?
In any case, Veganism is not just about what you eat, but rather how you live. Veganism rejects the use of animal skin and animal byproducts as much as it rejects meat-eating. So I think you are rather a strict vegetarian, but certainly not a vegan. Just a matter of terms :)

I'm not fighting either, I never do. We're conversing, no worries. :)

I didn't say fashion is more important, I just said that it'd be nice if more fashion labels would use vegan leather instead of real leather.

It sure is a matter of terms and definitions, and I am well aware of veganism being a lifestyle rather than certain type of diet. Concerning my diet I am vegan, I am active in animal rights and I generally reject animal byproducts, the only thing is that I own about 3 pairs of leather shoes and maybe 2 leather belts. That's all.
If all that in the end makes me a vegetarian, a strict vegetarian, a soft vegan, vegan or just a twat...I don't know. :)
And I don't even care as much about these terms, as long as I know who I am. :cool:
 

CrystalGeezer

My secret's my enzyme.

girlonbike

New Member
I find the accusation of hypocrisy towards vegetarians very disingenuous. It's like they are not allowed to be vegetarians unless they cut out all other aspects of our exploitation of animals out of their lives. Anyone with any brains knows that short of going to live in a cave, this is totally impossible due to the way our society is set up.

So no, he's not a hypocrite, he does what he can which is more than most of us do.

It was not an acusation, just a discussion starter!
 

Qvist

Well-Known Member
I was expecting a response like this. :)
And I can see your point. But I can also see mine.
Also, I didn't say my idea wasn't provocative or ethically disputatious. Nor did I say it's realistic.
I don't really see my vegan values flawed by this, as I would never ever eat human meat.
The reason that I don't feel more distaste against this than against wearing animal skin might be that I, in many ways, like animals better than humans.
Maybe I'm nuts. If so, it's ok. I can live with it. :D

My point about your vegan values pertained to your stance on wearing skin, not cannibalism. After all, you are a vegetarian.

It seems to me that if the view that animals are worth as much as humans is to have any ethical credibility whatsoever, it should be about extending the same sanctity to animal life as to human. Once it's about a willingness to regard humans as just as valueless as animals, you are in very murky territory indeed. Ultimately almost all evil in this world boils down to disregard or contempt for the value of human life, whatever the lofty ideal invoked. I doubt you really want to go there.
 

Anker Ignis Fatuus Von K.

Fumbling politeness
My point about your vegan values pertained to your stance on wearing skin, not cannibalism. After all, you are a vegetarian.

It seems to me that if the view that animals are worth as much as humans is to have any ethical credibility whatsoever, it should be about extending the same sanctity to animal life as to human. Once it's about a willingness to regard humans as just as valueless as animals, you are in very murky territory indeed. Ultimately almost all evil in this world boils down to disregard or contempt for the value of human life, whatever the lofty ideal invoked. I doubt you really want to go there.

I never talked about "regarding humans as just as valueless as animals" (apart from the fact that animals of course are NOT valueless). If that was my idea then I would have written that we should keep humans in cages and brutally murder them at a young age for their meat and skin. But I wrote something else.
I didn't say that my idea was in any way conform to vegan values. It isn't. I was just showing a, in my opinion, less unethical way of producing leather than getting it from animals.
It seems that to you humans are worth more than animals (correct me if I'm wrong!), so under these circumstances it's just logical that you find my idea unethical.
But to me animals and humans are equal in worth. But the difference is that we can verbally communicate with other humans, so they can tell if they think it's ok that their skin is being used after their NATURAL death. The animal being slaughtered, dying an UNNATURAL death, can't tell you. And no murder is being committed. That's my point.

Anyway I can't see this conversation leading anywhere. I'm outta here for now. :)
 

Vauxhall95

I Know It's Over...

Happy Maudlin

Corinthian and Caricature
I though Morrissey has since found an alternative to the cow's skin but he can't avoid it he is prone to liking luxury. He once said that he was " A Gucci baby". I can't blame him though. I would have the same problem.
 

roma/totti

New Member
what about when he kicked Rouke out of the band for drug use, but a few years down the road basicly says drug use is ok in "Interesting Drug"?
 

CrystalGeezer

My secret's my enzyme.
what about when he kicked Rouke out of the band for drug use, but a few years down the road basicly says drug use is ok in "Interesting Drug"?

Ummmm, correct me if I'm wrong but HE sings, "Interesting Drug, the one that YOU took."
 

Qvist

Well-Known Member
I never talked about "regarding humans as just as valueless as animals" (apart from the fact that animals of course are NOT valueless). If that was my idea then I would have written that we should keep humans in cages and brutally murder them at a young age for their meat and skin. But I wrote something else.
I didn't say that my idea was in any way conform to vegan values. It isn't. I was just showing a, in my opinion, less unethical way of producing leather than getting it from animals.

Yes, but what you wrote was that human skin should be used in the same way that animal skin is used today, which is repugnant to most people because it represents a degradation of the value of human life - regardless of how the skin is procured or how the original owners of it feel about it.

It seems that to you humans are worth more than animals (correct me if I'm wrong!), so under these circumstances it's just logical that you find my idea unethical.

Of course. But it is also unethical on the basis of your own conviction that animals are worth as much as humans. You are not moving animals up to the level of value of humans, which would entail that no skin should be worn. You are instead moving humans down to the level of value of animals (as that is seen by most people today), by arguing that everybody's skin can be worn.


But to me animals and humans are equal in worth. But the difference is that we can verbally communicate with other humans, so they can tell if they think it's ok that their skin is being used after their NATURAL death. The animal being slaughtered, dying an UNNATURAL death, can't tell you. And no murder is being committed. That's my point.

I know. But that does not change the fact that your point ends up in a position that degrades human value as it is understood today, without in the least elevating that of animals. So perhaps it isn't a very good point.

cheers
 

lottie

Love Me Outside!
Is this a good point at which to say....

leather isnt a byproduct of the meat industry,
most of the leather used in the western world comes from completely different animals to those murdered for meat.

*hides*

(yes i do believe meat is murder and i abhor leather in any shape or form yet im not vegan, so name calling can commence :thumb:)
 
Re: Yes he is.

I find the accusation of hypocrisy towards vegetarians very disingenuous. It's like they are not allowed to be vegetarians unless they cut out all other aspects of our exploitation of animals out of their lives. Anyone with any brains knows that short of going to live in a cave, this is totally impossible due to the way our society is set up.

So no, he's not a hypocrite, he does what he can which is more than most of us do.

This.

I have developed my own theory about leather. Until maybe a year ago I didn't buy any leather products at all. Now I still try to avoid leather, but if I see a decent pair of leather shoes e.g., that is just like the shoes I desire, I will buy them.
My theory is that as long as the majority of people in this world are meat eaters (and unfortunately it is like that) we can at least can bestow the animal the honour of being used completely, and not being thrown away apart from the meat. The leather is just a byproduct of the f***ing meat industry, so as long as this industry exists there will be these byproducts, why throw them away then.
If there was no meat industry (wonderful thought!) then it would be something else, then leather would be the same as fur, killing just for the fur, the rest is being trashed.
There has been talk about leather from animals being caught in traps, but as far as I know there's a law against that now, at least here in Denmark.
Please don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending the meat industry or any other kind of animal cruelty. If there's someone who loves animals and is a proud vegan then it's me. I would always prefer vegan leather to real leather.
I can easiy see how my view could be seen as hypocritical, taking advantage of an industry that I curse myself. And yes, I know about supply and demand. I can easily understand all the counter-arguments.

So no, I don't really think Morrissey is much of a hypocrite.

You're both so right. Although I'm pretty sure that Morrissey no longer wears leather, in my opinion it's ethically better to be a vegetarian and still wear it than to be an all-out carnivore, because at least it means the person is doing something. Leather is indeed a by-product of the meat industry, not, as with fur, something which the animals are exclusively slaughtered for.
 
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