Aside from the lyrics, Morrissey's contribution to the songs,via his melodies, is very valuable. Without the lyrics and vocal melody, in other words Morrissey's entire contribution, the songs would be very dull. Can anyone seriously say This Charming Man would have charted without Morrissey's input? I listened to Black Cloud today and, lyrics aside, the melody and phrasing are just amazing. Does Marr come anywhere near with his stuff?
Morrissey is a very underrated musician
- Thread starter butley
- Start date
You have a point, but when you bring Marr into the equation, the obvious question is how many soaring, beautiful melodies has Morrissey coaxed out of a guitar? The answer is a big fat zero. They are/were masters of their individual craft and to ask to compare one on the other's speciality is nonsense.
T
Truth
Guest
If we're talking about melodies it doesn't really matter if it's voice or any instrument. The question I think would be how many of the songs he has written arrived with melodies intact.
I looked for Smiths demos on youtube. Most have Morrissey or are unreleased. Here's "Vicar In A Tutu," and it sounds good but it's pretty standard. Morrissey does add another dimension to it.
The version here is fast blues rock that could have turned into a ZZ Top song. By the time it's on the record the music has evolved, too, so maybe the words, melody and feeling of Morrissey's contribution inspired that. Maybe they were sort of collaborating back and forth. I have never read any of those books about The Smiths so I don't know if Marr would sometimes rework his parts after hearing what Morrissey did but it makes sense he might. And then he recorded so many parts so the mixing, what was chosen to be louder, and what parts might have been woven around the vocal parts could all change the overall sound and perception of the song a lot.
It's too bad that Morrissey has never as far as I know had a writing partner that he collaborated with at the same time instead of taking a tape away and writing his parts. And maybe it's happened but I've never heard of him coming up with a vocal melody and then having someone write around that.
I think there is a list on this site somewhere of stolen melodies. My first thought was The Cookies, "Only To Other People" where he takes the melody and inspiration from the concept for "The Girl Least Likely To."
In The Cookies song good things only happen to other people, and in Morrissey's song the girl hasn't yet realized that she's not a very exceptional writer and will probably never get recognition.
That's clever, though, to take a theme and look at it another way. The way he is known to have taken lines from books and inspiration from films suggests that he has probably done a lot of this. If he were ever to tell how he wrote some of the songs instead of the other things he seems bent on talking about it would be very interesting.
He is very talented and using your influences is a natural thing for any creative person. If he really spent that much time alone than films, books, and records would be a large part of his life. It makes sense these things would appear in his work.
And there are examples where we can hear the material he worked with. "Irish Blood, English Heart" is one of his biggest hits and the structure and chords are already there when it is called "Not Bitter But Bored." But Morrissey does change the melody and improves it greatly.
But whose fault is it that this is not discussed that much?
I looked for Smiths demos on youtube. Most have Morrissey or are unreleased. Here's "Vicar In A Tutu," and it sounds good but it's pretty standard. Morrissey does add another dimension to it.
The version here is fast blues rock that could have turned into a ZZ Top song. By the time it's on the record the music has evolved, too, so maybe the words, melody and feeling of Morrissey's contribution inspired that. Maybe they were sort of collaborating back and forth. I have never read any of those books about The Smiths so I don't know if Marr would sometimes rework his parts after hearing what Morrissey did but it makes sense he might. And then he recorded so many parts so the mixing, what was chosen to be louder, and what parts might have been woven around the vocal parts could all change the overall sound and perception of the song a lot.
It's too bad that Morrissey has never as far as I know had a writing partner that he collaborated with at the same time instead of taking a tape away and writing his parts. And maybe it's happened but I've never heard of him coming up with a vocal melody and then having someone write around that.
I think there is a list on this site somewhere of stolen melodies. My first thought was The Cookies, "Only To Other People" where he takes the melody and inspiration from the concept for "The Girl Least Likely To."
In The Cookies song good things only happen to other people, and in Morrissey's song the girl hasn't yet realized that she's not a very exceptional writer and will probably never get recognition.
That's clever, though, to take a theme and look at it another way. The way he is known to have taken lines from books and inspiration from films suggests that he has probably done a lot of this. If he were ever to tell how he wrote some of the songs instead of the other things he seems bent on talking about it would be very interesting.
He is very talented and using your influences is a natural thing for any creative person. If he really spent that much time alone than films, books, and records would be a large part of his life. It makes sense these things would appear in his work.
And there are examples where we can hear the material he worked with. "Irish Blood, English Heart" is one of his biggest hits and the structure and chords are already there when it is called "Not Bitter But Bored." But Morrissey does change the melody and improves it greatly.
But whose fault is it that this is not discussed that much?
Charlie Cheswick
Well-Known Member
Are you suggesting that the music side of This Charming Man was unchartworthy?
The same This Charming Man that Morrissey's band can't play? It is a bastard to learn granted.
Get away with yer shite!
A
Anonymous
Guest
singing is underrated as an instrument in general because people have the mistaken opinion that everyone can sing and you dont have to learn it; imo it's true that morrissey has a big talent for coming up with great melodies and it's an interesting subject
Well This Charming Man would not be remembered if it wasn't for Morrissey's contribution to it. No two ways about it.
I meant does Marr come anywhere near with his SOLO stuff?
Charlie Cheswick
Well-Known Member
Ah, probably not but i don't like his voice. Musically it's ok.
Orson Swells
Well-Known Member
Spark's Never Turn Your Back On Mother Earth is another one and I think Back On The Chain Gang was the inspiration behind Suedehead.
The original song is so bad it is amazing what Morrissey has made of it.
Johnny is still a great guitarist - but the man just can't sing. I can only imagine the response on this site if Morrissey released anything as bad as Easy Money. The video is a cringe-fest too.
Charlie Cheswick
Well-Known Member
Nor if it wasn't for Marr's. Check Morrissey's shit solo version for proof. Enough of this silliness already.
Morrissey requested his band play that version. I learned how to play TCM when I was a teenager. There are many teenagers today (and probably some even younger) who can play TCM. It's not that difficult.
Charlie Cheswick
Well-Known Member
You aren't doing M any favours in context...
Okay? Wasn't attempting to? I'm saying that in guitar terms, while TCM is a melodic masterpiece, it's not a technical masterpiece. Morrissey's band has played more difficult compositions by Marr, i.e "Some Girls."
Charlie Cheswick
Well-Known Member
Horses for courses, I found Some Girls easier to learn. Depends on the player I guess. I found the timing on the intro of TCM difficult to master, to really get it down, you know.
H
Halloway
Guest
A lot of Morrissey's vocal lines with The Smiths were, tbh, dull. It used to be said that he could only sing three notes and there's an element of truth in that. Think of The Headmaster Ritual where he barely strays from singing the same three notes over and over. In that respect, Morrissey improves as he gets older and sings more adventurous and interesting melodies (e.g. Something is Squeezing My Skull.)
Peppermint
Well-Known Member
g23
Always crashing in the same car
Many, many memorable artists can't "sing." Tom Waits, Robert Smith, Ian Curtis, Nick Cave, etc etc etc.
Passion goes a long way, as does sincerity. Going by this, I think Johnny has a very honest voice, and isn't nearly as off as someone
like Ian Curtis, who I adore, but couldn't carry a tune in a five gallon bucket.
Plus, getting to hear Smiths songs that don't sound like a cover band? That's a priceless thing.
Quando quando quando
Well-Known Member
Like you said, they “can’t” sing but that is not the deciding factor.
Their voices are standing out as immediately recognisable and personal and attract attention and lends them a certain authority and authenticity.
I don’t know how else to say that.
Even the singers considered to have a great singing voice, like Elvis, Bowie, Scott Walker etc. had a distinctive voice and I think it made all the difference.
There are possibly a lot of good, well trained singing voices but they don’t hit any nerve with me.
I would include Dylan and Lou Reed to your list.
Lou Reed was and still is at the top of my list together with Mozz ofcozz.
g23
Always crashing in the same car
There are a ton of great non-traditional voices. My etc etc etc included a lot of people, but I couldn't bring them all to mind.Like you said, they “can’t” sing but that is not the deciding factor.
Their voices are standing out as immediately recognisable and personal and attract attention and lends them a certain authority and authenticity.
I don’t know how else to say that.
Even the singers considered to have a great singing voice, like Elvis, Bowie, Scott Walker etc. had a distinctive voice and I think it made all the difference.
There are possibly a lot of good, well trained singing voices but they don’t hit any nerve with me.
I would include Dylan and Lou Reed to your list.
Lou Reed was and still is at the top of my list together with Mozz ofcozz.
Even Morrissey couldn't sing when the Smiths first arrived. He was vocalizing, and creating rudimentary melodies, but it sure wasn't singing in any traditional sense.
Orson Swells
Well-Known Member
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