The Britishness of Southpaw Grammar

[TrueToYou]

Now now don't stereotype us all like that. That's like saying that all Brits have bad teeth and watch cricket . I think that most of the Americans here are reasonably intelligent (obviously, as we listen to Moz! ).

i DO have bad teeth and watch cricket.

 

[thewarroom]

^^I have bad teeth too, if that helps .

 

[SouthpawGlamour]

Now now don't stereotype us all like that. That's like saying that all Brits have bad teeth and watch cricket . I think that most of the Americans here are reasonably intelligent (obviously, as we listen to Moz! ).

We do all have bad teeth and watch cricket.

 

[TrueToYou]

i do really need to see a dentist but i hate the thought of paying someone to knock my teeth out when i could just go out to the town on a friday night and come on to a squaddie and get it done for free.

 

[SouthpawGlamour]

i do really need to see a dentist but i hate the thought of paying someone to knock my teeth out when i could just go out to the town on a friday night and come on to a squaddie and get it done for free.

I like Clarkson's article about the modern obsession with teeth. He points out that skeletons, even millions of years old, always have teeth, yet we are expected to have a 6 month MOT, as if they are actually likely to all fall out. No-one would turn up at the doctors asking for a 6 month MOT :>

 

[TrueToYou]

I like Clarkson's article about the modern obsession with teeth. He points out that skeletons, even millions of years old, always have teeth, yet we are expected to have a 6 month MOT, as if they are actually likely to all fall out. No-one would turn up at the doctors asking for a 6 month MOT :>

i do wish my teeth were alot better, i eat WAY too many jelly tots.

 

[Alcoholic Afternoons]

Americans tend to be a bit dim.

Particularly the ones that developed "rockabilly" as a musical style...

 

[mozmic_dancer]

Well, I think any degree of flag-waving adds nothing in understanding the album and it merits. Next, people will be saying only musicians should be allowed to appreciate music because only they can play instruments.

Morrissey is English so his attitudes and character will shine through his work. The fact that those who are not English and want to understand him is a great testament for the high regard Morrissey's audience have for him. I suppose you can make the argument that Morrissey's "Northern" English attitude can just as easily fly over the heads of English people who live in different parts of England. So, I respectfully poo-poo this attitude that this album's Englishness was what turned people off.

I believe that what may have turned some people off to this album was the heavier emphasis on the musicianship and overall different direction this album took being released after "Vauxhall and I". Some people may be content to hear Morrissey produce "Vauxhall" over and over again like a sausage grinder but the fact remains that Morrissey is an artist and his work is a reflection to what he was experiencing at at the time.

I liked this album. The b-sides were particularly glorious.

 

[Danny]

This may be controversial but it's just a theory of mine.

I don't believe the lack of success of this album was anything to do with the quality of the work.

I don't think success in pop music often has anything to do with quality. I think it's more to do with perception. Whether people believe your star is in the ascendant or is on the wane.

With Morrissey we can see that from the beginning of the nineties he was up against the perception that he was on the wane. He was unfashionable and not cool. Therefore his records gradually sold less and less.

His "comeback" made him briefly cool again. Critics love the story of a comeback to they were content to go along with that.

However, that is over now and I'm pretty sure, even if it's a work of staggering genius, the next album won't sell nearly as well as ROTT. Once again, it is perceived that he is on the wane.

It's all about fashion. Sorry to be cynical but it's my perception that is how the music industry works.

 

[SouthpawGlamour]

Particularly the ones that developed "rockabilly" as a musical style...

At least somebody realises I am joking

 

[mozmic_dancer]

I think that is a good theory.

For instance, as good as "Vauxhaull and I" was, I've often wondered if the album was so heralded not by its merits, but by the speculation at the time from music critics that this was to be Morrissey's last album?

And just to add controversial fuel to your bonfire, what about the notion of Morrissey mentioning in several interviews about the politics that go on at publications regarding interviews in exchange for good reviews?

 

[Please]

I see. I think all kind of communication between people is subjective, that is, the received is never what was sent (in smaller or greater scale).
If we speak Morrissey, so it's important that English has the status of a major language and is therefore more available also for non native speakers. As you encounter it on the net and elsewhere, you do not find it that distant anymore. The cultural things is a more difficult issue. Perhaps this certain gap is filled with additional information that is only relevant for the specific non English listener. That's at least how the classic works of art survive through time and space.
Another possibility is that you can create an abstract universe, where proper nouns are just signs without any physical anchorage - especially if you are devoid of cultural grounding and just immersed in a foreign environment without combining with it.

I see what you are saying, but the world is not an abstract place, we cannot identofy with things in a strong way, based on imagined landscapes.

I was;nt speaking so much about language, but about experience. However i also think language also comes threw interaction, tone and direction.

 

[Please]

Well, I think any degree of flag-waving adds nothing in understanding the album and it merits. Next, people will be saying only musicians should be allowed to appreciate music because only they can play instruments.

But englishness is intrinsic to understanding Morrissey's work.there is a difference between appreciating from a disatnce and understanding (or at least identifying with in terms of experience)

Morrissey is English so his attitudes and character will shine through his work. The fact that those who are not English and want to understand him is a great testament for the high regard Morrissey's audience have for him. I suppose you can make the argument that Morrissey's "Northern" English attitude can just as easily fly over the heads of English people who live in different parts of England. So, I respectfully poo-poo this attitude that this album's Englishness was what turned people off.

i agree there is a gulf between what a northerner would experience and what someone in the south would. therefore the understanding may be slightly less. However the distance between the two is really not that great. Also Morrissey has written about places in the South, as well as the struggles between north and south and what they both seem to represent (on the surface)

I believe that what may have turned some people off to this album was the heavier emphasis on the musicianship and overall different direction this album took being released after "Vauxhall and I". Some people may be content to hear Morrissey produce "Vauxhall" over and over again like a sausage grinder but the fact remains that Morrissey is an artist and his work is a reflection to what he was experiencing at at the time.

totally agree, as i said before, people did;nt like the fact that it was'nt all jingle jangle etc etc. This album had a certain grit about it that shocked some people and disgusted others

I liked this album. The b-sides were particularly glorious.

sssss

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

I see what you are saying, but the world is not an abstract place, we cannot identofy with things in a strong way, based on imagined landscapes.

I was;nt speaking so much about language, but about experience. However i also think language also comes threw interaction, tone and direction.

Well what about the theory that everything exists only your mind? Anyway, I do not find the reality that real, especially in a degree that could deprive me of indulging in music, be it English or any other.
Also in a postmodern way it's possible to construct your own collage, a lame example: an American street name in the lyrics could be a name of a shop in your neighbourhood that you frequent and thus have a connection to, unlike the distant town you've never even heard of. And if it makes sense to you, so it's really swell and valid.

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

His "comeback" made him briefly cool again. Critics love the story of a comeback to they were content to go along with that.

However, that is over now and I'm pretty sure, even if it's a work of staggering genius, the next album won't sell nearly as well as ROTT. Once again, it is perceived that he is on the wane.

It's all about fashion. Sorry to be cynical but it's my perception that is how the music industry works.

There's some truth in it, I'm sure, especially if you think about the compliments to Sanctuary for the extraordinary promotion. On the other hand, I wouldn't find it alarming, if it is simply coming back to the condition of the previous contract-less era - with religious like attitudes of the fans and concerts as very special treats for the devoted. He could carry on in this way, even releasing new stuff, but it would be a disgrace if he tried to sell himself or fight for new audiences via marketing. It also depends on how much new stuff of high quality he can produce. Still I trust him in feeling the momentum.

 

[Please]

Well what about the theory that everything exists only your mind? Anyway, I do not find the reality that real, especially in a degree that could deprive me of indulging in music, be it English or any other.
Also in a postmodern way it's possible to construct your own collage, a lame example: an American street name in the lyrics could be a name of a shop in your neighbourhood that you frequent and thus have a connection to, unlike the distant town you've never even heard of. And if it makes sense to you, so it's really swell and valid.

I kind of agree, all landscapes are imagined, but the clarity of that imagined landscape has to be influenced by ones experiences. Dagenham Dave is a huge example, the video conveys some of the song, but i think if you have ever met a 'dagenham dave' you would understand the song on a different level

 

[mbb321]

Kill Uncle is by far his worst album in my opinion, but many Americans will not agree due to it being one of the only Moz albums they can relate to. This is in terms of the Rockabilly style when the album was played live. I could elaborate further, but i have hot dogs on the stove and a brew in the pot.

 

[SouthpawGlamour]

Kill Uncle is by far his worst album in my opinion, but many Americans will not agree due to it being one of the only Moz albums they can relate to. This is in terms of the Rockabilly style when the album was played live. I could elaborate further, but i have hot dogs on the stove and a brew in the pot.

It's the worst album, but it was saved by the rockabilly live style. Rockabilly has been popular in Europe for the last thirty years, but not at all popular in the USA.

Recently rockabilly has become popular in the USA,so I wouldn't give any credit to the USA for liking rockabilly.

 

[dagenham don]

As for Southpaw, if you shut off the vocals and just listen to the music, it's complete and utter crap. Kumo

I don't think I could disagree more. For me, the album is a high point for the band. On Southpaw Grammar, it as if Morrissey's vocals and lyrics take a backseat to let the music tell the story. In most of Morrissey's solo work, I think the opposite is true. The music frames and supplements the vocals/lyrics. It is the most unique of the Morrissey albums and for that, I love it. Southpaw Grammar is also, in my opinion, the best Morrissey album to listen to while driving at high speeds. Beginning somewhere in the middle of "The Teachers are Afraid of the Pupils," the album takes on a harsh intensity that doesn't let up until the end of "Southpaw." It sounds ridiculously corny, but I think the most appropriate thing I can say is "this album really rocks."

As for its "Britishness," Morrissey has always boosted my knowledge and appreciation of Britain. I have looked up many phrases, concepts, and places because I heard them in Morrissey songs. I remember someone on here saying that the line "I love Karen, I love Sharon on the windowscreen" was uniquely English. Could someone explain what extra meaning these words take on for you Brits?

 

[thewarroom]

I don't think I could disagree more. For me, the album is a high point for the band. On Southpaw Grammar, it as if Morrissey's vocals and lyrics take a backseat to let the music tell the story. In most of Morrissey's solo work, I think the opposite is true. The music frames and supplements the vocals/lyrics. It is the most unique of the Morrissey albums and for that, I love it. Southpaw Grammar is also, in my opinion, the best Morrissey album to listen to while driving at high speeds. Beginning somewhere in the middle of "The Teachers are Afraid of the Pupils," the album takes on a harsh intensity that doesn't let up until the end of "Southpaw." It sounds ridiculously corny, but I think the most appropriate thing I can say is "this album really rocks."

As for its "Britishness," Morrissey has always boosted my knowledge and appreciation of Britain. I have looked up many phrases, concepts, and places because I heard them in Morrissey songs. I remember someone on here saying that the line "I love Karen, I love Sharon on the windowscreen" was uniquely English. Could someone explain what extra meaning these words take on for you Brits?

I agree completely Don.