The Britishness of Southpaw Grammar

[9 x Fined]

It becomes kind of silly to insist on a privileged status as a listener.

Yes.

Back when it came out, there was chit chat on the ASK listerv about Southpaw Grammar and how you either hated it or loved it. From what I remember, people were saying [citation needed] that it was mainly the older Morrissey fans who were taken by it. Who knows.

Personally, I've loved it since day one. There is a fiery live energy (propelled by the band in particular) that hasn't been matched on any Morrissey record, before or since.

As for it's Britishness, the only thing I think American fans would be lost on was the Dagenham Dave sleeve.

 

[Please]

What i am saying is there is a britishness to most of Morrisseys work, whether it be a reference to a bridge (not only location, but also form) or use of wording.

Its not a negative thing just inevitable

 

[Please]

"I don't think that it's lyrically disappointing at all. The problem with SG is that most people don't have a clue what Morrissey is singing about.

SG is very English.. The "I love Sharon on the windowscreen" for instance is often dismissed as silly lyrics, but when one knows what this line is actually about, it makes sense! The whole reason behind "Nobody Loves Us" being a b-side for "Dagenham Dave" speaks so much as well, IF you knew what he was talking about..."

Okay, then please enlighten me. I thought the whole "I love Sharon on the windowscreen" was just Dave replacing the windshield with a sticker of the individual he was infatuated with on that particular day/time. If there is more to this than please let me know (seriously).

As for Nobody Loves Us as a B-Side. It is simply a superior song. It should have made the album, whereas the lyrically disappointing Best Friend on the Payroll could have been a B-Side (IMO).

I agree with the premise that as an American I'm not getting all the refereces; however, I totally disagree that Southpaw is more "British" than say Vauxhall & I for instance:

The title being a European automobile
This is Not Your Country - Irish struggle for independence
Spring Heeled Jim
Lyrics like "All night chemists", "jammy poets", references to Graham Greene's novel Brighton Rock... There are soo many "British" references...

Hmmm i agree in parts, buit vauxhall is a place in london, and if i am not mistaken, Vauxhall as a brand is only used in the UK (?) whereas on the continent it is Opel?

I did a paper on the Geography of Morrisseys lyrics once. A song like dagenham dave is fundamentally linked to Dagenham. Dave is a common name in dagenham, so is sharon and karen. People with boyfriend -girlfriend banners in their car was an epedemic in the late 80's and early 90's.

I am not saying that it can;t all be looked up, but the intensity of identification with certain lyrics is reduced slightly. Yet as other posters have said in other areas this may be made up for.

 

[Vauxhall95]

As for it's Britishness, the only thing I think American fans would be lost on was the Dagenham Dave sleeve.

So what is the significance of the picture on the sleeve?

Thanks!

-Vaux

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

Its not a negative thing just inevitable

A lil' rhetorical question: Am I also supposed to own a car and be occasionally pulled over to understand Boy Racer?
Shucks!
Oh me, silly bugger...

 

[Nikita]

There are certain issues that only the British and further more the English can truly grasp. That goes for both The Smiths and Morrissey as a solo artist. The attitude of the English is alot different to that of the American attitude or outlook. At least as far as i can tell.

It is often clear on this board that there is a definate void for non-british fans

Give an example of total Britishness in Southpaw Grammar - for your information, there are plenty of "Dagenham Daves" in France ...

This may be controversial but it's just a theory of mine.

I don't believe the lack of success of this album was anything to do with the quality of the work.

I don't think success in pop music often has anything to do with quality. I think it's more to do with perception. Whether people believe your star is in the ascendant or is on the wane.

With Morrissey we can see that from the beginning of the nineties he was up against the perception that he was on the wane. He was unfashionable and not cool. Therefore his records gradually sold less and less.

His "comeback" made him briefly cool again. Critics love the story of a comeback to they were content to go along with that.

However, that is over now and I'm pretty sure, even if it's a work of staggering genius, the next album won't sell nearly as well as ROTT. Once again, it is perceived that he is on the wane.

It's all about fashion. Sorry to be cynical but it's my perception that is how the music industry works.

The thing is that in the nineties, before SG, he sold more and more albums ...

 

[Please]

A lil' rhetorical question: Am I also supposed to own a car and be occasionally pulled over to understand Boy Racer?
Shucks!
Oh me, silly bugger...

No. thats not what i am saying, you miss my point. You have to have to have experienced it, not lived it. This may have been by you viewing it, you being in the car, you seeing it on local news, you hearing about it by word of mouth/gossip.

 

[Please]

Give an example of total Britishness in Southpaw Grammar - for your information, there are plenty of "Dagenham Daves" in France ...

thats exactly my point, there are no dagenham daves in france. There is no dagenham in france!

 

[Danny]

thats exactly my point, there are no dagenham daves in france. There is no dagenham in france!

Exactly, you can't understand about Dagenham until you've been there.

 

[Kewpie]

Nikita meant that there're some industrial areas in France where you can spot someone like Dagenham Dave?

 

[triumphs&charms]

Exactly, you can't understand about Dagenham until you've been there.

I always thought Dagenham Dave was as a generic term for working class men, like when Labour and the Tories were desperately after the votes of "Mondeo Man" in marginal seats, meaning working to middle class, middle aged men. Then again Moz could have just loved the Stranglers's song of the same name.

 

[dislocate my shoulder]

No. thats not what i am saying, you miss my point. You have to have to have experienced it, not lived it. This may have been by you viewing it, you being in the car, you seeing it on local news, you hearing about it by word of mouth/gossip.

Therefore your further statement is contradictory:

thats exactly my point, there are no dagenham daves in france. There is no dagenham in france!

Because even if one is not living in a Dagenham-type of city, one can still 'have experienced it' - in this country or other.

So, what I also wanted to say, as Kewpie put it

Nikita meant that there're some industrial areas in France where you can spot someone like Dagenham Dave?

Aloyzas from Salininkai could be one's experience as well.

 

[Danny]

I always thought Dagenham Dave was as a generic term for working class men, like when Labour and the Tories were desperately after the votes of "Mondeo Man" in marginal seats, meaning working to middle class, middle aged men. Then again Moz could have just loved the Stranglers's song of the same name.

There is nothing "working to middle class" about Dagenham.

 

[triumphs&charms]

There is nothing "working to middle class" about Dagenham.

I know, I was talking about Mondeo Man. If only Dagenham Dave had been written today, it would have given Moz ample opportunity to slate the BNP seeing as they won council seats there.

 

[Nikita]

thats exactly my point, there are no dagenham daves in france. There is no dagenham in france!

I know my English is quite poor, but I thought I was pretty clear on that one : I told the exact opposite, there are some Dagenham in France

 

[Worm]

There is nothing "working to middle class" about Dagenham.

Could you tell the rest of us what significance Dagenham has to the song? I'm sure you could explain it in your usual articulate way and I'd like to know. I had read a long time ago about the person the song is based on, but I don't know much about Dagenham itself.

Not that I'm saying you're doing this, Danny, but for a long time I've noticed that the whole "Englishness" thing with Morrissey/Smiths is one of the most-mentioned and least-defined parts of Moz fandom. Everyone seems to agree Morrissey is "quintessentially English" (the phrase forever stamped on our minds from the '85 radio interview that appeared on so many picture disc LPs over the years, stuttered by that otherwise nice Aussie DJ) but so rarely does anyone bother to articulate how he is English, or what "English" means. Sure, I agree that Morrissey's work has pure English DNA, but what are we missing?

Again, to repeat, I don't doubt there's something English fans understand that non-English fans don't get. I just don't think it's all that much. Not that I'm an expert, of course, but speaking as a fan of various English cultural products I haven't found your great country to be the mysterious riddle it's often made out to be.

 

[Please]

Therefore your further statement is contradictory:


Because even if one is not living in a Dagenham-type of city, one can still 'have experienced it' - in this country or other.

So, what I also wanted to say, as Kewpie put it


Aloyzas from Salininkai could be one's experience as well.

it is not contradictory at all, someone from france can experience a dagenham dave, but they have to go to dagenham to do it, you won;t find a french dagenham dave.

take buddy holly for instance, i;m sure peggy sue was a very american girl, therefore it is harder for an english person to truly understand what peggy sue was all about. Yes an english person may understand that peggy -sue was a disirable woman but...

maybe a crude example, but an example non the less