Poco Innocente
A ring a ding ding
you're a grade A tosser. I shouldn't think anyone would be interested in your advice
Conservatives & Morrissey Fans
- Thread starter Kumo
- Start date
you're a grade A tosser. I shouldn't think anyone would be interested in your advice
I'm at a loose end waiting for my slippers to warm up so decided to re-read this debate.
The above paragraph by Kumo staggered me.
It justifies the war on Iraq because it boosts the failing American economy.
Nearly one million innocent people so far, men women and children, killed in a foreign land for the sake of a growth in profits in USA.
He asks us "So what do you want a few million dead at home or a few thousand volunteers die at war?"
If this is not evil then I'm a mermaid.
"A few thousand volunteers"?
Do the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead not belong in your calculations?
As for claim that if the Iraq war lasts another 20 years there will still be less death than caused by the depression - my first reaction to that is that as an economist you clearly have no grasp on figures. Utterly ridiculous.
Secondly I find it evil yes EVIL that you have done a simple (if flawed) calculation that when a depression looms it's good to have a war.
Do you now see how, when even slightly analysed, capitalism is evil?
Death, war, starvation, poverty, disease and destruction are all acceptable tools to use to protect the capitalist system.
How on earth any sane, intelligent human being in the 21st, or any, century is ready to settle for such horror is beyond me.
In time I may deal with the rest of your weasel words.
I say it again - shame on you and your kind.
Jane Birkin
Member
sadly my dear foolish friend, you are far too young to understand how bad it was to live under a tory government, a government that was inherently , racist , homophobic and downright fascistic, go ahead vote cameron and wait for those glory days to come back.
Kumo
Banned
You could not be more mistaken here, and it's the biggest mistake people make including Morrissey. Capital is not created at the exepense of another. The economy is not a pie, where if someone takes a big slice it leaves a smaller one for the rest. This is completely untrue. GDP expansion is an upward spirial and if growth models are applied properly it raises everyones standard of living.
If you really don't understand the forces involved of the economy and the most basic proven laws of economics, you should brush up before try to convince anyone of anything.
Kumo
Kumo
Banned
Even the most slanted propaganda puts the death toll at 65,000 (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/) Please show me a respected legitimate source that indicates more?
Of course my heart goes out to the innocent who lost their lives. However when faced with a choice to protect the millions of people you were sworn to protect and save millions of your people vs. hurting a very few innocents. The choice is clear. The steps take to reduce civilian deaths are expansive, there is no thoughtless, senseless killing at play. The alternative would be unacceptable.
dallow_bg
the one he left behind
They've obviously never taken an economics class.
The better the GDP the better the standard of living.
But like you said, so long as it's all applied properly.
To answer the original post.
I like Morrissey for Morrissey. It's as simple as that for me. No matter what my views are.
Worm
Taste the diffidence
Thought that was worth repeating.
mspendl828
Banned
Yes, it was so, so terrible that she won three elections. Such was the hatred the whole country felt for her and her policies.
Anyway, that's it for me on this thread. If anyone wishes to continue with me, you can always send over some abusive PMs
You say that, but he, and indeed I, were alive for a portion of Thatcher's glorious revolution. As far as I know, so were our parents, extended family etc. My parents certainly enjoyed that Thatcherite government, voting for them as they did in numerous elections. Could it be some lost souls here in deepest, darkest Yorkshire managed to enjoy SOME prosperity? How dare they, eh? As the great unwashed went...unwashed.
Spineless Swine
Are you loathsome tonight
Yes, it was so, so terrible that she won three elections. Such was the hatred the whole country felt for her and her policies.
Anyway, that's it for me on this thread. If anyone wishes to continue with me, you can always send over some abusive PMs
well actually as any self respecting geeky politics student will know she polarized Britain, so that the 40% of the population that thrieved under her loved her, whereas the 'underclass' she created, absolutley loathed her.
mspendl828
Banned
Well, as any real geek would know, the Conservatives collected roughly 43% of the vote in all three elections she won, which would not suggest at all that the policies she put in place had any negative effect on her party's popularity at the polls.
And to class 60% of the population as being 'underclass' is, frankly, remarkable.
Anyway, now I really am retired from this discussion as it will just go round in circles as always
And to class 60% of the population as being 'underclass' is, frankly, remarkable.
Anyway, now I really am retired from this discussion as it will just go round in circles as always
Spineless Swine
Are you loathsome tonight
Well, as any real geek would know, the Conservatives collected roughly 43% of the vote in all three elections she won, which would not suggest at all that the policies she put in place had any negative effect on her party's popularity at the polls.
And to class 60% of the population as being 'underclass' is, frankly, remarkable.
Anyway, now I really am retired from this discussion as it will just go round in circles as always
I did put 'underclass' in speech marks... and trust me she did polarize Britain, i'll send you my text book if you like!
Wild Oscar
Born-again Atheist
Yes, some Yorkshire folk did indeed prosper in those days - in Harrogate, Ilkley, York, Wetherby and north Leeds, for example.
I didn't see too much of it in Castleford/Pontefract, Barnsley, Sheffield, Bradford, Wakefield or Hull though - not all pit communities, but all industrialised areas.
Polarised Britain it certainly was.
On the strengths of capitalism in general, though, and possibly to add to the mix of this discussion...no-one has yet mentioned, in their critique of socialism, the idea that, while socialism/Marxism appears to have failed thus far, didn't one theory have that communism will only occur after capitalism reaches its very highest stage - Imperialism?
Yes - all our isms are now wasms, as the saying went at the fall of communism, but is it yet that the fat lady has not yet sung, and that when capitalism reaches its apogee it will, for some as yet unexplicable reason, come crashing down, and a new political system will emerge?
I think that's something like what Lenin said anyway....
Food for thought?
Good night!
Bluebirds
Well-Known Member
The lancet report that Blair and Bush decreed was false. Unless you're missing a zero before the comma... the MOD scientists now concede that this the most accurate estimate of the dead in Iraq since Bush decreed that it was all over.
look it up.
As for the other comments by my learned friends...
Thatcher didn't polarise this country??? YEH WHATf***ING EVER. her policies are responsible for the state of the nation now. Period. end of story. Apathy, individualism, the most telling thing she said?> Oh if you're still male and getting a bus at the age of 26 you should consider yourself a failure.
43% of the VOTERS voted for her apartheid policies. Thats not 43% of the electorate. I don;t know why those why of you decree Thatcher and Conservatism (note "C" not "c") like that even bother existing (but thats a personal opinion)
voyenurie had valid points and ... despite my cynicism as one of Thatchers children.. I recognise that
I am apathetic... I also recognise that the infatuation we have with property and invariably status is plain wrong, and why should child labourers make my duvet as they struggle to live a life that the majority of us can't even begin to comprehend. Its JUST NOT CRICKET.
As someone said before me more eloquently.. empathise with the situation that the majority of people suffered. NOT your working-class Tory scum who happened to be your parental guidance.
Kumo
Banned
Thacher...
Thacher made some mistakes but she did the best anyone could have giving the information avaliable at the time. I dare say things would have been far worse without her.
You have to remember there were still Keynesians around, it was the the stagflation of the 70s that finally completely discredited keynesian economics. According to his phliosophy it should have been impossible.
Japan and the US turned to Monetarism based on Milton Friedman's work. Thather did to, through the constant advice of her close friend Paul Volker. They didn't have it right yet, but it was a damm good start.
What you have to understand is that Friedman really was the first to take the study of economics away from the Philosophers and apply proper scientific method. The study of economics really is in it's infancy. However as it was with Science the general population wants to believe in concepts like spontenious generation and the earth is in the center of the universe, for a lot longer than they should. There are still many out there who know nothing of economics and are baising their view of the economy on completely false assumptions. We need to move forward not backward, David Ricardo proved free-trade is a net gain for both sides. These concepts have been improved upon in the Heckscher-Ohlin trade theory model. Come on folks comparative advantage is quantifiable, it's not some "capitalist voodo trick" Yet people are protesting at WTO meetings, it's completely insane! It's like going to a doctors office and protesting AIDS medication, it's not perfect yet but better than keeping them in a leprosy colony.
The best advise I can give all of you, is to learn how the economy really works and make your investments accordingly. You can't wait for a politician to make your life better, but you better understand how his actions impact the economy and be the first to act and put your money in the right place.
All the liberty and freedom isn't worth shit if you don't have two shillings to rub together.
Kumo
Thacher made some mistakes but she did the best anyone could have giving the information avaliable at the time. I dare say things would have been far worse without her.
You have to remember there were still Keynesians around, it was the the stagflation of the 70s that finally completely discredited keynesian economics. According to his phliosophy it should have been impossible.
Japan and the US turned to Monetarism based on Milton Friedman's work. Thather did to, through the constant advice of her close friend Paul Volker. They didn't have it right yet, but it was a damm good start.
What you have to understand is that Friedman really was the first to take the study of economics away from the Philosophers and apply proper scientific method. The study of economics really is in it's infancy. However as it was with Science the general population wants to believe in concepts like spontenious generation and the earth is in the center of the universe, for a lot longer than they should. There are still many out there who know nothing of economics and are baising their view of the economy on completely false assumptions. We need to move forward not backward, David Ricardo proved free-trade is a net gain for both sides. These concepts have been improved upon in the Heckscher-Ohlin trade theory model. Come on folks comparative advantage is quantifiable, it's not some "capitalist voodo trick" Yet people are protesting at WTO meetings, it's completely insane! It's like going to a doctors office and protesting AIDS medication, it's not perfect yet but better than keeping them in a leprosy colony.
The best advise I can give all of you, is to learn how the economy really works and make your investments accordingly. You can't wait for a politician to make your life better, but you better understand how his actions impact the economy and be the first to act and put your money in the right place.
All the liberty and freedom isn't worth shit if you don't have two shillings to rub together.
Kumo
I've just had a walk around the housing estate and told everybody they should invest their spare cash wisely. Those with jobs said if the landlord will let them off with this week's rent then they might be able to buy a few shares, or pay their electricity bills.
And I've sent letters to the grieving mothers in Iraq telling them to keep an eye on the stock market if they want to forget how their children were blown to pieces.
The families living in dirt shacks in India, who work long hours servicing western call centres have sent an email to thank you for pointing out that their desperate living conditions are due to them wasting time trying to stay alive when they should have been at economic classes with you.
Also, the thousands of people who lost their jobs due to businesses relocating to Asia are wondering if you can use your enormous brain to find a solution to stop their marriages falling apart and houses being repossesed?
I quoted them a few passages from Milton Friedman and followed it up with an economic lesson based on the teachings of David Ricardo, I told them I had you to thank for all this - they asked for your address. I think they want to repay you by teaching you a lesson you'll never forget.
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Kumo
Banned
Ahh outsourcing, yes indeed it is another form of free trade. Of course there is a very short terrm pinch, but in the long run, it will lead to much better and more interesting jobs at home, and increase the standard of living abroad, how could any one be opposed to this?
Creating efficiency in markets is vital for industry to grow. I don't understand why people look at industry as the enemy when they are the ones providing jobs and feeding the world.
As a side note, along with Morrissey I also meet Lady Thacher! Just at a book signing in Century City.
Kumo
Bluebirds
Well-Known Member
Did you meet them at the same time??? No wonder Morrissey (if you are to be believed) ran a f***ing mile from you!
I'd have punched her in the gob and then pissed on her. And then I would have set her on fire. And then I would have stamped on her f***ing haircut which would still have been intact and hit her ashes with her handbag. And then sold her ashes as heroin.
As for your out-sourcing arguments have you ever tried buying a train ticket off someone in Mumbai? And yes I can just see all the folks at the closed Burberry plant for example loving the job opportunities in the Valleys. Oh Thatcher took all of them away. You f***ing moron
Kumo
Banned
No I did not see them at the same time, however I keep track of who signs with what pen, I had her use a pen that Morrissey previously signed with.
Malcolm McDowell and Robert Smith also signed with the same pen.
Burberry is a great example. Burberry was dying a slow death, it took many important steps to recover and become a global brand (BTW my Burberry shirts are made in the USA) Because of free markets and the free flow of labor Burberry is a huge global success. Every school girl in Japan has a Burberry muffler now. Before Burberry had no brand manager position for Japan, now it does, a far better and more interesting job than a factory worker. Japan is just one country Burberry had opened trade with, you can buy Burberry all over the planet now. There have been 1000s upon 1000s of high paying jobs created at Burberry because of it's global strategy. Think about all those profits from around the world all being remitted back to the UK growing your GDP creating new jobs in new sectors.
Thanks for bringing up such a perfert example that illustrates my point. Outsourcing gave Burberry the competitive advantage to be a global player, creating new, better, higher paying jobs at home.
Remember the simple laws of economics, for every 2.7% the GDP grows unemployment is reduced by 1% (Okun's Law) Burberry has become a major contributor to the UK GDP. You have to look at the big picture. Had Burberry taken no action not only would there be a reduction in jobs at home because they would have gone out of business, but they would not have been able to contribute to the GDP and stimulate job growth in other sectors.
Cheers,
Kumo
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