Conservatives & Morrissey Fans

[Worm]

It's more the way of operating that is familiar to me. Every few months we get a new poster who claims never to have visited the site before. They start posting as if they have lots of new insights and know more than everyone else. They make it clear they don't have much time for Morrissey these days with veiled insults and disparagements about his character. For a few weeks they seem to virtually live on here permanently pretending to be completely innocent and well meaning while trying to put down other posters with their "superior" wit or knowledge, then they completely disappear.

Then a month or so later a brand new one appear.

Maybe it's just a character trait of ex-Morrissey fans, but it's pretty spooky that they all behave exactly the same way.

Yes, you could be right. And it is spooky.

For me it goes back to the beginnings of this thread. Way back when, I said that both conservatives and liberals could like Morrissey. It's not surprising to me that Kumo, new to the site or not, at one time liked The Smiths, or that other conservative types enjoy his music. There's a political spectrum among Morrissey fans that's broader than it is for most artists. I have no intention of taking a stab at pie-charting the fans, but speaking roughly I'd guess that-- among those fans who care about politics-- most are left, some are mixed, and a smaller, more vocal minority are right.

In a way this whole debate confirms the existence of different kind of fans. And in the debate you see the prejudice on the part of both sides. The left-ish types accuse the rightists of having no heart and soul, the rightists try to say that the left-ish types are ignorant folk afraid of learning. Standard stuff, really. Most people fall somewhere inbetween, which makes for interesting threads sometimes, and other times, not so much-- like this one, where I think half the people are debating one thing and half another.

 

[Kewpie]

It's more the way of operating that is familiar to me. Every few months we get a new poster who claims never to have visited the site before. They start posting as if they have lots of new insights and know more than everyone else. They make it clear they don't have much time for Morrissey these days with veiled insults and disparagements about his character. For a few weeks they seem to virtually live on here permanently pretending to be completely innocent and well meaning while trying to put down other posters with their "superior" wit or knowledge, then they completely disappear.

Then a month or so later a brand new one appear.

Maybe it's just a character trait of ex-Morrissey fans, but it's pretty spooky that they all behave exactly the same way.

It's irrelevant to the discussion, but someone pointed out it on other thread.
Kumo replied that he forgot his old user name and password, re-registered with a new name.

 

[SurferGirl]

After the 50th page of this, i kinda got bored.. it just seems to be a back and forth b/w a few. My opinion, not that it really matters, but i have to say about Morrissey and most of the vegetarians that I have met.... But The question remains. How is one a vegetarian and Pro-Choice? Am i missing something here? Is it more important to save an animal life "who has no voice" or a human being that has NO VOICE!!!!! It SHOULD BE BOTH!!!! Especially the latter. So how can one be a "veggie" and pro-choice? Can anyone explain this to me ?

 

[Kumo]

It's more the way of operating that is familiar to me. Every few months we get a new poster who claims never to have visited the site before. They start posting as if they have lots of new insights and know more than everyone else. They make it clear they don't have much time for Morrissey these days with veiled insults and disparagements about his character. For a few weeks they seem to virtually live on here permanently pretending to be completely innocent and well meaning while trying to put down other posters with their "superior" wit or knowledge, then they completely disappear.

Then a month or so later a brand new one appear.

Maybe it's just a character trait of ex-Morrissey fans, but it's pretty spooky that they all behave exactly the same way.

Economics is one thing Morrissey is another, I think I was clear in many of my posts I was bitter after the Kill Unlce tour but have no such ill feelings about Moz or his fans these days. People change, grow, move on, etc... After the tour I will most likely fade away forget my username and password and start anew during the next tour. My primary reason for being here is information. Not to say I haven't enjoyed joining in on the converstations...

On Morrissey I am hardly an expert, just a fan who met him a few times and had a few conversations.

On the economy I am paid to teach and consult, does that make me an expert? Not really, but I hope my clients and students think so...

I am not here to disparage anyone, if you look at the first post in this thread, I was asking conservatives how they felt about Morrissey, I had hoped to keep the conversation within the conservative fan base, I was more interested in having a conversation with them than being attacked by fallacy after fallacy... It's okay though... if teaching has given me anything it's a thicker skin...

Good Luck,

Kumo

 

[Kewpie]

After the 50th page of this, i kinda got bored.. it just seems to be a back and forth b/w a few. My opinion, not that it really matters, but i have to say about Morrissey and most of the vegetarians that I have met.... But The question remains. How is one a vegetarian and Pro-Choice? Am i missing something here? Is it more important to save an animal life "who has no voice" or a human being that has NO VOICE!!!!! It SHOULD BE BOTH!!!! Especially the latter. So how can one be a "veggie" and pro-choice? Can anyone explain this to me ?

*sigh*
Use appropreate contraception.

 

[Kumo]

Yes, you could be right. And it is spooky.

For me it goes back to the beginnings of this thread. Way back when, I said that both conservatives and liberals could like Morrissey. It's not surprising to me that Kumo, new to the site or not, at one time liked The Smiths, or that other conservative types enjoy his music. There's a political spectrum among Morrissey fans that's broader than it is for most artists. I have no intention of taking a stab at pie-charting the fans, but speaking roughly I'd guess that-- among those fans who care about politics-- most are left, some are mixed, and a smaller, more vocal minority are right.

In a way this whole debate confirms the existence of different kind of fans. And in the debate you see the prejudice on the part of both sides. The left-ish types accuse the rightists of having no heart and soul, the rightists try to say that the left-ish types are ignorant folk afraid of learning. Standard stuff, really. Most people fall somewhere inbetween, which makes for interesting threads sometimes, and other times, not so much-- like this one, where I think half the people are debating one thing and half another.

For me I was a Smiths fan in my teens, when I first met Morrissy at 15 or 16, I knew nothing of how the economy worked. At that time I would say my leanings we very liberal, but really didn't know why, it just seemed the more humane approach. As I became educated and learned the true opertative functions of the economy it became transparent what would lead to the greater benefit for mankind. In the end I feel Morrissey is singing more about the human condition than politics anyway... so it was easy for me to remain a fan.

Kumo

 

[Kumo]

After the 50th page of this, i kinda got bored.. it just seems to be a back and forth b/w a few. My opinion, not that it really matters, but i have to say about Morrissey and most of the vegetarians that I have met.... But The question remains. How is one a vegetarian and Pro-Choice? Am i missing something here? Is it more important to save an animal life "who has no voice" or a human being that has NO VOICE!!!!! It SHOULD BE BOTH!!!! Especially the latter. So how can one be a "veggie" and pro-choice? Can anyone explain this to me ?

You are talking about pubic policy and I was talking about economics. I am not a vegetarian but I try to avoid meat as much as possible for health reasons. I do enjoy a steady diet of fish and tofu. As far as the abortion topic, I am not pro-choice or pro-life, I am pro-abortion. The third world is vastly over populated and each generation born contributes to the misery. One of the key steps out of the poverty trap is drastic population reduction. I also don't think convicted child molesters and abusers should ever have the right to have a child.

Kumo

 

[Kumo]

*sigh*
Use appropreate contraception.

Sadly to say the 3rd world doesn't get it. The previous Pope really did a number on Latin America with his stance on contraception being a sin. In India contraception is considered perverted and strange. However, with the increase untreated in AIDS cases there it may come out to be a wash.

Kumo

 

[Kewpie]

Sadly to say the 3rd world doesn't get it. The previous Pope really did a number on Latin America with his stance on contraception being a sin. In India contraception is considered perverted and strange. However, with the increase untreated in AIDS cases there it may come out to be a wash.

Kumo

*Big sigh......................*
too bad you didn't get sarcusm.

 

[Kumo]

*Big sigh......................*
too bad you didn't get sarcusm.

Oh I got your sarcasm (iyami) but I never miss an chance to express an important pont...

Hey you never answerd my question about if you knew of any Morrissey interviews where it talks about his feelings on Japan...

Cheers,

Kumo

 

[Worm]

Yawn, If you are not going to even attempt to digest what I have said there is not point in further discussing this with you. You have twisted the meaning of my statements tnen trying to attack them as if it is something I support. Typical straw-man fallacy...

Oops. Looks like we've gone off the rails.

Everything you've been saying about hard economic theory is not what I am objecting to. There's nothing to "digest" because I'm not going to debate economics with you. I'm not questioning Okun's law or laissez-faire economics. I'm certain economics is a valuable discipline worth studying and that everyone, including me, could always learn more about the very real forces that shape our lives. Nor do I need convincing about the theoretical superiority of a free market economy, which I totally accepted a long time ago, albeit with qualifications.

I'm questioning the central mistake you're making that blows up everything you're talking about, and that is the human factor. You're pretending like you're the keeper of knowledge the rest of us are either too dumb or too naive to grasp for ourselves. All your detractors are saying is this: your economic laws and models describe the real world but they are also subject to the unquantifiable in the real world, too, and this you don't allow for. As soon as you leave the security of the classroom, you're hopelessly at sea. That 90/10 ratio is a joke. No "education in economics" is necessary to see this because no one is attacking economics per se. They're objecting to how you're using it.

I twisted nothing in your argument. I focused on your statement that the U.S. economy was in peril of a second Great Depression after 9/11, and your choice of war as a regrettable but necessary remedy. I quote: "How many people died because of the great depression? The cold hard truth is that a dejected economy is far more deadly than war." I repeated it back to you using your own terms because I was curious how you reconciled your cold hard economic facts with the last six years of U.S. history in which a Republican-dominated free market administration should have lionized your profession but didn't. They didn't because economics in the real world are much messier than you contend.

But I also showed that you-- you, Kumo-- were somehow also agreeing that economics were somewhat mitigated by the randomness of human events. You repeatedly refer to empirical truths while simultaneously admitting there are factors you can't account for and will never be able to account for. This is actually rather funny. Just as I did with the Swiss cheese story about Jim the security guy, I questioned you solely on statements you had made, since I found them wanting common sense, let alone "insider knowledge", and you could not come back with anything substantive other than run-home-to-mommy appeals to 'higher authorities': Milton Friedman, you, economics jargon, you, the schools you attended, you.

Only one thought you've articulated stands out as consistent: your contempt for everyone here.

 

[Kewpie]

Oh I got your sarcasm (iyami) but I never miss an chance to express an important pont...

Hey you never answerd my question about if you knew of any Morrissey interviews where it talks about his feelings on Japan...

Cheers,

Kumo

I'd suggest you to check http://www.passionsjustlikemine.com
You'll find some information from there.

 

[Kumo]

Everything you've been saying about hard economic theory is not what I am objecting to. There's nothing to "digest" because I'm not going to debate economics with you. I'm not questioning Okun's law or laissez-faire economics. I'm certain economics is a valuable discipline worth studying and that everyone, including me, could always learn more about the very real forces that shape our lives. Nor do I need convincing about the theoretical superiority of a free market economy, which I totally accepted a long time ago, albeit with qualifications.

Keep learning and make your investments accoringly and you will do fine...

As for the rest of your comments, you may not be trying to setup a strawman, but you indeed are. I don't subscribe to such a black and whtie view as you paint.

Your Friend,
Kumo

as for Jim... see the attached photo (6/14/1991), while I am sure you will say a picture proves nothing, I just thought you might want to see what he looked like...

From left to right.
1st guy with hat was a driver that was hired to take Moz to the tonight show in a classic RR.

2nd guy, a much younger Moz obviously

3rd guy with red shirt, our beloved Jim...

4th balding guy, forgot his name... he was with Moz on the entire Kill Uncle tour, by the way they interacted we suspected he was Moz's lover, again just speculation they could have been just very close mates, who knows, I don't really want to debate it.

5th guy, your humble (much younger) Kumo excited about taking a ride to see Morrissey perform on the Tonight Show...

Anyway like I said I don't care if you believe any of my stories about Moz, hope you can at least enjoy the photo and please keep digging into the economy, there are many treasures for you to find! I wish you luck!

BTW how do you post a full size picture, not just the thumbnail? PM me if you can help...

 

[SurferGirl]

*sigh*
Use appropreate contraception.

What?

 

[SurferGirl]

Economics is one thing Morrissey is another, I think I was clear in many of my posts I was bitter after the Kill Unlce tour but have no such ill feelings about Moz or his fans these days. People change, grow, move on, etc... After the tour I will most likely fade away forget my username and password and start anew during the next tour. My primary reason for being here is information. Not to say I haven't enjoyed joining in on the converstations...

On Morrissey I am hardly an expert, just a fan who met him a few times and had a few conversations.

On the economy I am paid to teach and consult, does that make me an expert? Not really, but I hope my clients and students think so...

I am not here to disparage anyone, if you look at the first post in this thread, I was asking conservatives how they felt about Morrissey, I had hoped to keep the conversation within the conservative fan base, I was more interested in having a conversation with them than being attacked by fallacy after fallacy... It's okay though... if teaching has given me anything it's a thicker skin...

Good Luck,

Kumo

I love Moz the same that I always have, I have grown up and have had to make a stance for my life and my childrens... take it as you will.. what ever, i love moz and well, just question some of his ideals that's all ... there is no such thing as Conservative, at least here in America... it doesnt' exist anymore.

 

[Kumo]

I love Moz the same that I always have, I have grown up and have had to make a stance for my life and my childrens... take it as you will.. what ever, i love moz and well, just question some of his ideals that's all ... there is no such thing as Conservative, at least here in America... it doesnt' exist anymore.

How do you define Conservative?

Kumo

 

[SurferGirl]

How do you define Conservative?

Kumo

I suppose it depends on what your country your from. Honestly I have not posted here much and do not know where peeps are from. In America it USED to be that Conservative was , Sorry if i'm offending people but to me it was one with High Morals. They gave a sh@t about their kids, church, just morals in general. It seems like no one has any morals anymore. People act on what the y want to act on. Regardless if its right or wrong. But NOW Wrong doesnt' mean anything, its just interpretation. I would like to know know where it fell. I suppose i'm just frustrated. So to kinda answer your question... Conservative are the Democrats and the Democrats are the Communist. Yes, I can here it now, i don't know what the hell i"m talking about, I'm just crazy.. what ever-- i don't care and for the Communist out there..and are saying that they are "peace" loving give me a break!!!! More people have died under the Communist regimn than the nazi regimn... but we live in a workd now that we have to acceot everyone and not bat an eye...

I know i'm being a bum, but well, that's how i feel...and no one really cares to hear it... it just doesnt' make sense reight????

 

[Kumo]

I suppose it depends on what your country your from. Honestly I have not posted here much and do not know where peeps are from. In America it USED to be that Conservative was , Sorry if i'm offending people but to me it was one with High Morals. They gave a sh@t about their kids, church, just morals in general. It seems like no one has any morals anymore. People act on what the y want to act on. Regardless if its right or wrong. But NOW Wrong doesnt' mean anything, its just interpretation. I would like to know know where it fell. I suppose i'm just frustrated. So to kinda answer your question... Conservative are the Democrats and the Democrats are the Communist. Yes, I can here it now, i don't know what the hell i"m talking about, I'm just crazy.. what ever-- i don't care and for the Communist out there..and are saying that they are "peace" loving give me a break!!!! More people have died under the Communist regimn than the nazi regimn... but we live in a world now that we have to acceot everyone and not bat an eye...

I know i'm being a bum, but well, that's how i feel...and no one really cares to hear it... it just doesnt' make sense reight????

I think the term you are looking for is Social Conservative. If you go back far enough the Dems were the Social Conservatives and the Republicans were the progressives e.g. freeing slaves, giving women the right to vote, ending the poll tax, leading civil rights legislation, conserving the earth's resources, etc... It really wasn't until President Ronny that Republicans captured the Christian vote, he used the Abortion issue to do this...

I am a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian. On some issues I side with social conservatives when it serves the economy. For example in principle I feel drugs should be decriminalized. If someone wants to take the risk let them. However, when you look at the larger picture drugs cost the economy trillions in lost productivity. It makes the US far less competitive in the global market. I know there are some casual drug users who are high functioning individuals. Should we allow a drag on the economy just so they can indulge in their recreation of choice? I don’t think it’s worth it. Lifting people out of poverty I feel is far more important.

On abortion I don’t think you have any hope in the US for your side. The republicans will never make it illegal. Look at the previous 6 years; they had a majority in congress, the senate and the president. Yet they did nothing to make it illegal. Why? Because the abortion issue is their bread and butter. Abortion is a hot button issue and it gets people to open their wallets. Not a lot of people would donate to the Republicans if they came to them and said “we need your funds now, so we can implement fiscal policy that coincides with the Solow-Growth model” most people would just go, huh? So if abortion is your biggest issue and you are on the pro-choice side, you should ALWAYS vote Republican they have the largest financial interest in keeping it legal.

Not to say the Republicans are the only hypocrites on social policy. In all fairness we should look at the Dems recent passing of minimum wage increases. Yes the Dems claim to be for the little guy, the non-skilled laborer, they want to help him out and raise his income. Well the Dems very well know that by doing this it will hurt the people they claim to help most. They are depending on the ignorance of their constituency to secure votes. Here is how it works; say you have a factory and the cost of labor just became more expensive than the cost to automate. What are you going to do? You will automate and pay a few skilled guys a little more to operate the machine and lay off all the unskilled workers. Or perhaps you will outsource. Now the poor guy who lost his job doesn’t understand the economics at play he will just think “gee, the Dems tried to get me more money and those bad companies screwed me.” They will continue to vote for Dems over and over again, the very people who screwed them over.

Cheers,
Kumo

 

[SurferGirl]

I know my history pretty well, and I guess I cannot stomach the term Social Conservative. I (oh my moz fans!!!, yes i have different views) gasp..

But , erm.. don't like that word... It is what has applied to now.. but dont' care for it. Bush is NOT a conservative nor are the goobs that have been elected to Congress. Bush said he was a good ole boy, Christian at that, but not so much. He's a liar and everyone, even those who claim they are conservative know it. I don't like the word Socialist. Mainly because what it stands for and second the youngin's think its cool to be it and have not done their research. As for abortion, the question is for those who are veggies and vegan to just explain their thought process. IE..It just doesn't make sense to support it or to support a candidate that supports it. IMO, the only great thing that Bush has done is to ban partial birth abortions. I used to be pro-life, but folks when you have kids.. it all changes. Now should we go into Morrissey's Catholic opinions? Nicer debate really.. hee hee

 

[WinkWink]

5th guy, your humble (much younger) Kumo excited about taking a ride to see Morrissey perform on the Tonight Show...

Anyway like I said I don't care if you believe any of my stories about Moz, hope you can at least enjoy the photo and please keep digging into the economy, there are many treasures for you to find! I wish you luck!

it looks like that guy you say is you, is having something autographed since Morrissey has marker in hand. he (you) looked up to smile for a pic. he (you) were probably part of a handful of fans who stopped Morrisey to have things signed and a pic taken. This is escpeially true since morrissey is with an entourage and security on the way to his curbside car. This man (you) is obviously someone who waited for morrissey to walk out and have his stuff signed with the rest of the people--which is why the security and all that.

if you were in private conversations with him (and are you saying you took a ride to the Tonight show with morrissey?), why no pictures that do not have morrissey only half-interested, and with a pen in hand?