She is off the tour.

Can anyone remember why Jo Slee was sacked?

I don't think the story was ever revealed. In a 1998 "Uncut" article it says she was first cast out, then let back into his "inner circle". Slee was asked to explain why he so frequently cuts people out of his life:

Why does he have so many fall-outs?

"Well, I could give you a very cheap answer - he's insane!" laughs Jo Slee. "But no, I think he has very high expectations of people, and he's very quick to take umbrage, or to feel let down, and you don't often get a second chance. That's childlike. He's very extreme in his emotional reactions to people. He's always been intensely suspicious, actually finding it intensely difficult to trust people. I actually feel like he's been indoctrinated against trusting people at some stage in his life."​

Grant Showbiz explained what happened to Caryn Gough. Very Kristeen Young:

"She just happened to say to somebody, "Oh those covers used to take me no time at all. I used to slap 'em up." That was it. Literally about a week later she was excommunicated by Morrissey."​
 
Grant Showbiz explained what happened to Caryn Gough. Very Kristeen Young:

"She just happened to say to somebody, "Oh those covers used to take me no time at all. I used to slap 'em up." That was it. Literally about a week later she was excommunicated by Morrissey."​

what would be so offensive to him about her being quick at her work, as long as he was happy with the final product?
 
what would be so offensive to him about her being quick at her work, as long as he was happy with the final product?

If Showbiz was quoting her correctly, I think it was the implication that Caryn did the work, not Morrissey. Or maybe just that it was slapped together. Either way her comment detracts from the idea of the sleeves as carefully planned and executed imagemaking on Morrissey's part.
 
If Showbiz was quoting her correctly, I think it was the implication that Caryn did the work, not Morrissey. Or maybe just that it was slapped together. Either way her comment detracts from the idea of the sleeves as carefully planned and executed imagemaking on Morrissey's part.

Thank you very much Worm.

I heard when Mike Joyce did interview with Record Mirror, Morrissey was very displeased.
Morrissey's point of view, Mike was not in position to speak to a journalist without his and Johnny's consent which was very bizarre.
 
If Showbiz was quoting her correctly, I think it was the implication that Caryn did the work, not Morrissey. Or maybe just that it was slapped together. Either way her comment detracts from the idea of the sleeves as carefully planned and executed imagemaking on Morrissey's part.

caryn gough was responsible for the layout part of sleeves (as she is credited for "layout" on many of them).... so, probably your latter suggestion is the most plausible --- since morrissey gets credited for artwork right? [like this on hatful of hollow: http://www.discogs.com/release/382135 ]

still... gosh, so someone is speedy at their layout duties!
 
That's true, Kewpie. You might be right. It could be that Morrissey was upset that she spoke to the press without permission. Maybe that was true of Jo Slee also.

caryn gough was responsible for the layout part of sleeves (as she is credited for "layout" on many of them).... so, probably your latter suggestion is the most plausible --- since morrissey gets credited for artwork right? [like this on hatful of hollow: http://www.discogs.com/release/382135 ]

still... gosh, so someone is speedy at their layout duties!

Heh, well, no-one would ever accuse Morrissey of overreacting, right?

The sad thing is that Morrissey's run of great sleeves pretty much ended when Jo and Caryn stopped helping him. I like some of the sleeves since then, but none of them approach the best Smiths and early solo work. I was just looking at "Playboys" and "Interesting Drug" and those are wonderfully done. Compare them to later releases...the contrast is saddening.
 
I've read many interviews from Jo Slee. I happen to believe she is one of the few commentators who is objective about Morrissey and doesn't have her own agenda when she talks about him. She is sympathetic yet critical in a non-nasty way.

I have never read that she claimed she was sacked by Morrissey. I've never read that she was sacked from any other source either.

I don't think it's rational to assume that everyone who left Morrissey's employment was sacked. Plenty of people have left of their own accord. That's life. People have family committments or other ambitions. Morrissey doesn't keep people on retainers so they may find they have to find other work and end up not going back. Very few people stay in the same job forever.
 
I've read many interviews from Jo Slee. I happen to believe she is one of the few commentators who is objective about Morrissey and doesn't have her own agenda when she talks about him. She is sympathetic yet critical in a non-nasty way.

I have never read that she claimed she was sacked by Morrissey. I've never read that she was sacked from any other source either.

I don't think it's rational to assume that everyone who left Morrissey's employment was sacked. Plenty of people have left of their own accord. That's life. People have family committments or other ambitions. Morrissey doesn't keep people on retainers so they may find they have to find other work and end up not going back. Very few people stay in the same job forever.

You may be right. I had never really thought of Jo being "sacked" in the first place, although I knew she drifted from him. Anyway, for what it's worth The Uncut article says that she "resigned under stress" and that she had a "falling out" with him, Not necessarily the same thing. I doubt she was given the boot like the others, or falls into a different category.

Re-reading the Uncut article also reminded me of a bizarre footnote: according to Gary Day, Sylvester Stallone, Rambo himself, is a fan. Oh, to have seen what Gary and all the others have seen over the years...the stories are probably half as titillating as most other rock stars' but definitely twice as strange.
 
I don't think the story was ever revealed. In a 1998 "Uncut" article it says she was first cast out, then let back into his "inner circle". Slee was asked to explain why he so frequently cuts people out of his life:

Why does he have so many fall-outs?

"Well, I could give you a very cheap answer - he's insane!" laughs Jo Slee. "But no, I think he has very high expectations of people, and he's very quick to take umbrage, or to feel let down, and you don't often get a second chance. That's childlike. He's very extreme in his emotional reactions to people. He's always been intensely suspicious, actually finding it intensely difficult to trust people. I actually feel like he's been indoctrinated against trusting people at some stage in his life."​

Grant Showbiz explained what happened to Caryn Gough. Very Kristeen Young:

"She just happened to say to somebody, "Oh those covers used to take me no time at all. I used to slap 'em up." That was it. Literally about a week later she was excommunicated by Morrissey."​

That's the quote I was looking for (from Uncut 1998) and yes, it was Caryn who got sacked, not Jo. I wonder if people in the Morrissey camp play upon his tendency to dismiss people for slights (insignificant ones or otherwise). What she said above could have been taken out of context and used against her (i.e. someone may have complimented her on her work and she, as people tend to do when complimented, dealt with the compliment by saying something to the effect of "Oh well, it was just something I threw together......"). Then again, I suppose none of this would have been taken into consideration, seeing as he sacked her because of what he had heard, and apparently nothing else came into it (which would be very plausible, considering Morrissey's dislike of confrontation, and hence, the absence of her side of the story in his decision to sack her).


You might say that 'any normal person would have confronted her', and that's what he should have done, at any rate. However, I think that if it turned out she hadn't said anything at all, it would not matter to Morrissey. The fact is that someone had suspected her of/ or insinuated that she had been saying things which would not please Morrissey, and that is enough to sack her, to make an example of her, maybe? It's a bit like blokes in a pub - one says to the other that another bloke across the bar was looking at his girlfriend. This may be completely untrue, but it doesn't matter, the insinuation must be acted upon. It doesn't matter if the poor, unsuspecting guy across the bar swears that he never even saw his girlfriend - people are watching and show must go on.

Perhaps this dynamic was true of the Kristeen Young incident - perhaps he wasn't all that bothered about the comment itself, but he would have known that the audience picked up on the insolence of it. She may have just said it in anger to that heckler, but it wouldn't have mattered to Morrissey - he had to act. And yes, while he doesn't always do things that his audience want him to, he does know what we expect of him (i.e. his habit of cancelling appearances and shows, but that's not to say that we encourage it!). And even though I vehemently disagree with her being sacked, I did expect it to happen, I'm afraid.
 
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That's the quote I was looking for (from Uncut 1998) and yes, it was Caryn who got sacked, not Jo. I wonder if people in the Morrissey camp play upon his tendency to dismiss people for slights (insignificant ones or otherwise). What she said above could have been taken out of context and used against her (i.e. someone may have complimented her on her work and she, as people tend to do when complimented, dealt with the compliment by saying something to the effect of "Oh well, it was just something I threw together......"). Then again, I suppose none of this would have been taken into consideration, seeing as he sacked her because of what he had heard, and apparently nothing else came into it (which would be very plausible, considering Morrissey's dislike of confrontation, and hence, the absence of her side of the story in his decision to sack her).

You might say that 'any normal person would have confronted her', and that's what he should have done, at any rate. However, I think that if it turned out she hadn't said anything at all, it would not matter to Morrissey. The fact is that someone had suspected her of/ or insinuated that she had been saying things which would not please Morrissey, and that is enough to sack her, to make an example of her, maybe? It's a bit like blokes in a pub - one says to the other that another bloke across the bar was looking at his girlfriend. This may be completely untrue, but it doesn't matter, the insinuation must be acted upon. It doesn't matter if the poor, unsuspecting guy across the bar swears that he never even saw his girlfriend - people are watching and show must go on.

Perhaps this dynamic was true of the Kristeen Young incident - perhaps he wasn't all that bothered about the comment itself, but he would have known that the audience picked up on the insolence of it. She may have just said it in anger to that heckler, but it wouldn't have mattered to Morrissey - he had to act. And yes, while he doesn't always do things that his audience want him to, he does know what we expect of him (i.e. his habit of cancelling appearances and shows, but that's not to say that we encourage it!). And even though I vehemently disagree with her being sacked, I did expect it to happen, I'm afraid.

Wow! I can't say that your theory is wrong, but it would surely be damning if it were true. I mean, the person you're describing sounds less like a pop star and more like one of the decadent Roman Emperors. I imagine slaves feeding him grapes; centurions dragging in Caryn Gough; and Morrissey yawning out the words "Put her to death".

Anyway, Caryn Gough seems to have fallen foul of Jo Slee as well. Perhaps Morrissey was angry on Jo's behalf, too, since Caryn's comment seemd to cut Jo out of the picture. Here is Jo on the sleeves: "From the beginning, all the artwork was conceived and controlled by Morrissey, whose instinct for presentation was unerring. With a sensualist's eye for coulour and line, he explored the complexities of visualisation; from a hoard of assembled images came the inspiration for each new design." You can imagine Morrissey's horror at Caryn's "slap 'em up" comment.

I notice in "Peepholism" that Caryn Gough is barely mentioned, despite laying out almost all the sleeves from "Hand In Glove" to "Piccadilly Palare". She isn't even thanked at the end.

I also noted, upon looking at the book again, that many sleeve layouts (after Caryn) are credited to Slim Smith. Slim Smith? Sounds like a pseudonym to me.
 
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Great thread - I'm really interested in what's been said over the past few pages.

I want to jump in with something more specific, which I hope won't open, at this point, any cans of worms (the "incident" phase of this seems to be over, so I feel a bit safer). Bottom line, I think the window's about to close on any talk, anywhere, of Morrissey and Young as a unit and I want to get these thoughts out somehow.

The thing about the two of them was that they had an uncomfortable number of things in common, and just the right kind of differences - and I suspect that was part of the initial appeal, as well as related to their split (whose nature, however, I now strongly feel was related to the pattern of both of their lives - and not so much to anything said or unsaid).

-Moz' trademark phrase is "I am human and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does" - Kristeen's, as repeated literally twice in her work and less-directly elsewhere, is "You don't know what you are dealing with." These lines are really sides of the same coin, I think; they're both admonishments that the obvious signs (which Young even lists for us: "clenched fists, introverted stance, inappropriately loud and mechanical, tense laugh..." - and we can add apparent involvement with a successful record producer, though this line precedes him) should not always be read with an eye to immediate dismissal - that the singer may well be a type, and an obvious type, but there's always more.

Only while Morrissey cajoles, Young threatens; he pleads for love, while she aggressively informs the listener that, no matter how clear the case may seem, he is "stupidly mistaken." And yet I believe both of them wish to be loved; it's just that Young has an intense urge to make sure everyone is completely informed (on multiple levels) before they make their decision.

-Both of them are iconoclasts and contrarians. I've read about Kristeen's early career in St. Louis, when she was also a figure of mockery, but this time because she was seen as a resistor to the final throes of grunge - playing flannel-filled venues in a minidress made of bread bags (and playing a synth in 1997). This is Linder all over again, and young Moz filling the Hacienda with flowers - just in a less-cute position, Dada in the Age of Sincerity.

(I'm less certain as to what her role is today, when the pop-cultural trend is slightly more in her camp - perhaps it's more about being raggedy. Or not humorless.)

Anyway, when you have the iconoclastic instinct, no matter how great your respect and how complete your disinterest in toppling this particular icon and how small (and perhaps even untargeted) the eventual manifestation, its chances of getting you into trouble with Morrissey approach one.

-Especially when one's iconoclastic instincts often run in the specific direction of pointed ungratefulness - Young has never been shy about shooting her allies, provided their intentions do not lead to a positive end (and might be construed as selfish). Which, again, is a similarity more than anything else. "Frankly Mr. Shankly" is much like "You Ruined Everything," though (presumably) with less sex.

This is not to say that she's never written a kind song, or even a kind song (apparently) about the same people she assaults elsewhere; it's just that she doesn't seem terribly good at disguising either delight or frustration.

-They are both, at root, artists who combine the brilliant with the painful- Kristeen applying a four-octave range to baby-voiced rants about robots and lying; Moz with his bathos, his animal sounds and his kegs. This is part of the reason I still respect them both immensely.
 
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Great thread - I'm really interested in what's been said over the past few pages.

I want to jump in with something more specific, which I hope won't open, at this point, any cans of worms (the "incident" phase of this seems to be over, so I feel a bit safer). Bottom line, I think the window's about to close on any talk, anywhere, of Morrissey and Young as a unit and I want to get these thoughts out somehow.

The thing about the two of them was that they had an uncomfortable number of things in common, and just the right kind of differences - and I suspect that was part of the initial appeal, as well as related to their split (whose nature, however, I now strongly feel was related to the pattern of both of their lives - and not so much to anything said or unsaid).

-Moz' trademark phrase is "I am human and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does" - Kristeen's, as repeated literally twice in her work and less-directly elsewhere, is "You don't know what you are dealing with." These lines are really sides of the same coin, I think; they're both admonishments that the obvious signs (which Young even lists for us: "clenched fists, introverted stance, inappropriately loud and mechanical, tense laugh..." - and we can add apparent involvement with a successful record producer, though this line precedes him) should not always be read with an eye to immediate dismissal - that the singer may well be a type, and an obvious type, but there's always more.

Only while Morrissey cajoles, Young threatens; he pleads for love, while she aggressively informs the listener that, no matter how clear the case may seem, he is "stupidly mistaken." And yet I believe both of them wish to be loved; it's just that Young has an intense urge to make sure everyone is completely informed before they make their decision.

-Both of them are iconoclasts and contrarians. I've read about Kristeen's early career in St. Louis, when she was also a figure of mockery, but this time because she was seen as a resistor to the final throes of grunge - playing flannel-filled venues in a minidress made of bread bags (and playing a synth in 1997). This is Linder all over again, and young Moz filling the Hacienda with flowers - just in a less-cute position, Dada in the Age of Sincerity.

(I'm less certain as to what her role is today, when the pop-cultural trend is slightly more in her camp - perhaps it's more about being raggedy.)

Anyway, when you have the iconoclastic instinct, no matter how great your respect and how complete your disinterest in toppling this particular icon and how small (and perhaps even untargeted) the eventual manifestation, its chances of getting you into trouble with Morrissey approach one.

-Especially when one's iconoclastic instincts often run in the specific direction of pointed ungratefulness - Young has never been shy about shooting her allies, provided their intentions do not lead to a positive end (and might be construed as selfish). Which, again, is a similarity more than anything else. "Frankly Mr. Shankly" is much like "You Ruined Everything," though (presumably) with less sex.

This is not to say that she's never written a kind song, or even a kind song (apparently) about the same people she assaults elsewhere; it's just that she doesn't seem terribly good at disguising either delight or frustration.

-They are both, at root, artists who combine the brilliant with the painful- Kristeen applying a four-octave range to baby-voiced rants about robots and lying; Moz with his bathos, his animal sounds and his kegs. This is part of the reason I still respect them both immensely.




she's actually not that good.
 
she's actually not that good.

Huh.

Thanks. Now that you've made that clear to me, I guess I'll pack it in. Sure, I've invested months of active fandom in the support of this woman, and I thought she was bang alongside my existing musical tastes and everything I believe about art - and was willing to blow whatever reputation I have on Solo for her sake, but now I see that she's a talentless cretin. I shall show no mercy in extracting her from my mind post-haste, possibly with surgery.

Christ, I guess the thread hasn't calmed down after all. Sorry I said anything. Kebab, have you ever heard one of their albums? Not that it matters.
 
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take it easy homey im not trying to arm wrassle.

my blurt was no attack on her or on you. i understand where she is coming from . i spent 15 minute in st louis and read her bio. ive seen her perform all the way through at least 7 or 8 times. i know why she feels the way she does.

we'll all grow up someday and forgive our parents whether we knew them or not.
 
take it easy homey im not trying to arm wrassle.

my blurt was no attack on her or on you. i understand where she is coming from . i spent 15 minute in st louis and read her bio. ive seen her perform all the way through at least 7 or 8 times. i know why she feels the way she does.

we'll all grow up someday and forgive our parents whether we knew them or not.

This isn't about maturity.

Or Kristeen's parents, for that matter, however much her bio (note: bio does not equal body of work) may mention them.

Homey, if I may call you that: you are the very last straw.
 
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