Best Singles Band

Best Singles/B-Sids Band


  • Total voters
    42
Please Please Me, With the Beatles, A Hard Day's Night, Beatles For Sale, Help!, Rubber Soul, Revolver, Magical Mystery Tour, Sergeant Pepper's, The White Album, Abbey Road and Let It Be. Not songs, ALBUMS, that are all at the least very good. Even including compilations, the Smiths effectively had six albums, half of what the Beatles did. Did the Smiths have six more good albums in them? Sales, influence, strength of songs, The Beatles are in their own class, even if they are an unattainable comparison. No one else could do what The Beatles did, and in a way no group has come as close as The Smiths. But Marr did to the Smiths what McCartney did to The Beatles, Marr just did it three years sooner than McCartney did. And, as I said before, in both cases, it only helps their respective legacies.
 
I always thought of the term singles band as a back-handed compliment ie inconsistent albums which The Smiths and Beatles post Rubber Soul could not really be accused of (apart from the debut album and the finall album respectively)

So using that maxim here's a list of singles bands who I regard as equal or better than the Smiths. In terms I tried to define above

New Order
Madness
The Jam
Super Furry Animals
Primal Scream (up to Country Girl)
Blur

I would also suggest that Madonna, Prince and Michael Jackson were great singles artistes up until the mid 90s. Others worthy of consideration (although they also don't particularly rock my world :lbf:) The Manics, Happy Mondays, Shakin' Stevens, Kingmaker

Holy s***! KINGMAKER sighting!!!!! :lbf:
 
Please Please Me, With the Beatles, A Hard Day's Night, Beatles For Sale, Help!, Rubber Soul, Revolver, Magical Mystery Tour, Sergeant Pepper's, The White Album, Abbey Road and Let It Be. Not songs, ALBUMS, that are all at the least very good. Even including compilations, the Smiths effectively had six albums, half of what the Beatles did. Did the Smiths have six more good albums in them? Sales, influence, strength of songs, The Beatles are in their own class, even if they are an unattainable comparison. No one else could do what The Beatles did, and in a way no group has come as close as The Smiths. But Marr did to the Smiths what McCartney did to The Beatles, Marr just did it three years sooner than McCartney did. And, as I said before, in both cases, it only helps their respective legacies.

You know, as much as I appreciate a well-argued, articulate, quasi-objective analysis of music-- I live for this stuff, obviously, and appreciate your contributions-- I would like to interject here, after your latest, perfectly reasonable paean to The Beatles, that speaking on a wholly personal level there's not even a tiny sliver in the tiniest atom of my being that actually thinks The Beatles are comparable to The Smiths. The latter are much, much better. The Beatles are a flickering cigarette lighter flame to The Smiths' blazing sun. Sorry, just admitting my personal bias. I like stepping outside my tastes and discussing these matters from the broader perspective of an armchair musicologist, but I'd choose The Smiths over The Beatles eight days a week. :)

Okay, carry on.
 
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But, that's the thing about The Smiths, there songs are so powerful and wonderful, but not everyone 'gets it.' Most everyone 'gets' The Beatles, but that, in and of itself, makes The Beatles less special.

That's the elitist argument. A friend of mine has a four year old who insists on being called John Lennon, and is currently in one of those Beatles phases that so many children go through. This always amazes me, and makes me wonder what it is about their music that is so elemental. You could say that The Beatles are less special because toddlers get them, or you could say that they are very special because they speak to something essential in human nature.

I tend to like art that is difficult to grasp - if you are easily understood, you're doing something wrong. However, the fact that The Beatles made music that appeals across age, culture and geography makes them exceptional.

I also find your "yesterday's rebellion..." axiom interesting because that's a perfect way to view The Smiths in relation to The Beatles. As I said earlier, I grant that The Smiths have been housebroken and tamed by the marketplace, to some degree. In some ways their posthumous fate is similar to The Beatles and every other "classic" band. But isn't it telling that they are still not really anyone's idea of a marketing ploy? I'm aware of things like the car commercial ("How Soon Is Now?"), but by and large The Smiths really aren't on the marketing radar the way lots of other groups are. I think that testifies to something truly dangerous in The Smiths' music.

True

And so, too, with The Beatles. It's probably a subtle point to see (and no doubt I'm making a somewhat general argument here) but for me there's a crucial difference between understanding The Beatles as creators of (or leaders in the creation of) the "counterculture Sixties" and The Beatles as the inevitable product of certain social and economic realities emerging in that decade. Did they direct the flow, or go with the flow? It's not a completely irrelevant question to ask, I don't think. One of the reasons punk and post-punk music has a rightful claim to being better than every other kind of pop/rock music is the way it opposed, truly opposed-- using a wide variety of tactics, obviously-- the cultural and political establishment. There remains, at the core of those movements, something that never has been, and never will be, assimilable to the mainstream. I tried to identify it above: a willingness to stand partly, or completely, outside of mass culture, a spirited wager that by taking the risk of being totally uncommercial, sometimes to the point of not even being music anymore, they could win a certain degree of independence from the machine of commerce-- the very machine The Beatles and their ilk had built.

I understand your argument, and being an old post-punk I have every sympathy with those who plant themselves firmly outside the mainstream. Everything is relative, of course. I doubt that they will ever commodify Throbbing Gristle, compared to whom The Smiths are easy listening. However, The Beatles (through Apple Records) were trying to change the mainstream, and for this I give them every credit. Standing outside the establishment allows you to throw rocks, but becoming the establishment allows you to put your money where your mouth is. The fact that the establishment usually fails to change is always a profound disappointment.

Politely disagree, for reasons I stated above. As history unfolds, we see more and more that The Beatles and their peers became the official soundtrack for globalization and everything that entails. So far, in the 24 years since they split up, The Smiths have not. It's a profound difference in my view. The Beatles didn't mean for it to happen, and they were certainly part of something larger going on, but nevertheless there was an intrinsic quality to their music which made it eminently useful for the rising tide of late capitalism. I maintain that whichever ad agency came up with that Nike ad didn't do violence to an innocent Beatles tune, but instead saw something in the music congenial to corporate profit-making. Whatever that quality is, it's not in The Smiths: box office poison, as Morrissey said.

This is a tricky point, and one worth thinking about. The Smiths became the soundtrack for outsiders, and those flying their freak flag high and without apology. That is a profoundly beautiful thing. They were dangerous.

The Beatles were dangerous too, but they succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams, thanks to their prodigious talent, unique mix of personalities, and the luck of being in a particular historical moment. Their music is congenial to so many things, it is perfect pop. I find The Stones to be very distasteful in this regard because they blatantly commodified "rebellion" in a way that The Beatles never did.

Viva box office poison.
 
But Morrissey is quite simply not a solo artist. He hasn't produced one single song 'of his own' ever.
He's always been the singer and lyricist in a pop group. He never writes the music and he's never played an instrument although he does have some (but limited) influence on how the songs sound musically.
The first pop group he found fame in were marketed as The Smiths. Since then he's effectively been in a series of different pop groups with songwriters, musicians and producers changing along the way. It's just that these pop groups have been marketed and presented as 'Morrissey'.
Tons of people in pop groups do genuinely go on to become solo artists e.g. P Weller, J McCartney, J Lennon, I Brown, G Coxon etc. Morrissey never became a solo artist in anything other than a marketing sense. It's the single biggest misconception in the land of Moz!
He certainly deserves credit, though, for the quality of his post-Marr songs. He's generally teamed up with largely unknown songwriters and musicians over the years unlike Marr who's nearly always worked with established acts.

Right. As the years pass I think he stands alone among solo artists who emerged intact from the wreckage of their former band. I find the quality of his solo material spottier than The Smiths' canon (almost anyone's would be; see my post above) but let's put it this way: if The Smiths released, let's say, 50 tracks that were five star, 10 out of 10, first-class songs, Morrissey has easily produced 50 of his own (if not more). Unprecedented for a solo artist, I would think.
 
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Quite right, Amy - see, we can agree on stuff, sometimes!
You get a pretty good indication of how Morrissey and Marr are held in the public esteem by typing "Morrissey/Marr is" into Google.
With Morrissey you get "is a prick/gay/racist"
With Marr you get "is God"!


I thought people liked Marr more than Morrissey, at least as a public figure. Of course Morrissey got more of the spotlight and the fame because he was the frontman, but I've never yet heard someone say "I like the Smiths, but the guitarist is a prick". Plenty have said it about the singer.
 
That's the elitist argument. A friend of mine has a four year old who insists on being called John Lennon, and is currently in one of those Beatles phases that so many children go through. This always amazes me, and makes me wonder what it is about their music that is so elemental. You could say that The Beatles are less special because toddlers get them, or you could say that they are very special because they speak to something essential in human nature.

The Beatles were fundamentally nice. Smiths not so much.
 
I understand your argument, and being an old post-punk I have every sympathy with those who plant themselves firmly outside the mainstream. Everything is relative, of course. I doubt that they will ever commodify Throbbing Gristle, compared to whom The Smiths are easy listening.

Yes, and with all due respect to TG and those who place themselves outside the mainstream, the threat inherent in The Smiths was the fact that they stood in some realm that was neither mainstream or margin, radical or conservative, old or young, hetero or homo, pop or rock, indie or Top of the Pops, and (dare I say it) male or female. Over the years I've experienced Smiths-hate from emaciated anarchist poets, surly right-wing frat boys, and every flavor of individual inbetween. The Smiths unsettled everyone, but they did so because they were so similar to so many different types of people. Morrissey's genius was best summed up in his most annoying and tiresome position: by not coming out as straight or gay, he allowed both groups to identify with him. He eats away at readymade categories from within, avoiding extremes in a delicate balancing act which holds various binaries together, in tension, rather than drifting toward either one. Whether we ask ourselves these questions explicitly or not, when we listen to his music we are pushed to reflect in some way on our lives: "This is pop, but it can also be this..." "This is straight, but it can also be this..." "This is love, but it can also be this..." "This is tragedy, but it can also be this..." The more extreme artists like TG can't accomplish that (though they can also do some things Morrissey can't).

But I must make a distinction:

However, The Beatles (through Apple Records) were trying to change the mainstream, and for this I give them every credit. Standing outside the establishment allows you to throw rocks, but becoming the establishment allows you to put your money where your mouth is. The fact that the establishment usually fails to change is always a profound disappointment.

For this particular kind of establishment, the one we're living in now, you can't change it from within. If you genuinely wish to change things you can't enter the mainstream hoping to give it the ol' college try, knowing it's going to end in disappointment. The beauty of The Smiths is that Morrissey ensured, both through the music and (especially) in his interviews, that The Smiths were always going to be outsiders. Not outsiders like TG, but certainly never welcome guests at the party. Just think of one example: Live Aid. When everyone in the world was praising Live Aid, Morrissey was the only major pop figure who offered the 100% correct opinion that the whole thing was a disgusting outbreak of sham liberalism. The governments of the world could cure hunger with a snap of their fingers, he pointed out, yet they chose to force the burden of saving starving Africans on citizens. That struck me as pretty savvy at the time, and I love his comments even more now in an age when things have gotten so ridiculous that programs like Social Security and Medicare are now slandered as "socialist" and "un-American" and put on the chopping block by a Democratic President. He understood which way the winds were blowing, and in my mind, though it would have taken a hell of a lot of courage, The Beatles could have too. Apple was noble, but they could have and should have known better.

In any case, Morrissey's perspective, as well as the inimitable way he wove it into his art, makes him a higher type of artist than Lennon or McCartney. The Smiths did not plant themselves totally outside the establishment, but listening to them you could at least get a vision of what an outside might look like. Nowhere in The Beatles' music is there such a vision-- or, more accurately, nowhere in The Beatles does one find a tenable, realistic, everyday vision of what an alternative world might be. Morrissey sang of a possible world in which we accepted ourselves, blemishes and all; The Smiths stand for the redemption of the world as it is, right under our noses, if we could only see it. The Smiths stand for the beatification of the common, the nobility of the rabble. It's what the name 'The Smiths' means, for heaven's sake. Meanwhile, The Beatles promised tangerine trees and marmalade skies.

I find The Stones to be very distasteful in this regard because they blatantly commodified "rebellion" in a way that The Beatles never did.

Yes, that's true. I agree with you there. The Beatles weren't half as faux-rebellious as the Stones-- who were nevertheless, in their own way, very good too.
 
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But Morrissey is quite simply not a solo artist. He hasn't produced one single song 'of his own' ever.
He's always been the singer and lyricist in a pop group. He never writes the music and he's never played an instrument although he does have some (but limited) influence on how the songs sound musically.
The first pop group he found fame in were marketed as The Smiths. Since then he's effectively been in a series of different pop groups with songwriters, musicians and producers changing along the way. It's just that these pop groups have been marketed and presented as 'Morrissey'.
Tons of people in pop groups do genuinely go on to become solo artists e.g. P Weller, J McCartney, J Lennon, I Brown, G Coxon etc. Morrissey never became a solo artist in anything other than a marketing sense. It's the single biggest misconception in the land of Moz!
He certainly deserves credit, though, for the quality of his post-Marr songs. He's generally teamed up with largely unknown songwriters and musicians over the years unlike Marr who's nearly always worked with established acts.

I sort of follow your logic here, but I feel that this post exists to take a swipe at Johnny Marr, which I don't really get. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
If you're talking 'bout quality undoubtedly it's Morrissey & The Smiths.
I'm not saying it 'cause this is a Moz forum...
 
You know, as much as I appreciate a well-argued, articulate, quasi-objective analysis of music-- I live for this stuff, obviously, and appreciate your contributions-- I would like to interject here, after your latest, perfectly reasonable paean to The Beatles, that speaking on a wholly personal level there's not even a tiny sliver in the tiniest atom of my being that actually thinks The Beatles are comparable to The Smiths. The latter are much, much better. The Beatles are a flickering cigarette lighter flame to The Smiths' blazing sun. Sorry, just admitting my personal bias. I like stepping outside my tastes and discussing these matters from the broader perspective of an armchair musicologist, but I'd choose The Smiths over The Beatles eight days a week. :)

Okay, carry on.

I appreciate the bluntness and I agree, these arguments are great. I have a feeling that we're going down a path with no end, which is fine, but as long as we're all on the same page. We're on a Morrissey forum, of course the majority of people here will take The Smiths over The Beatles, or will at least find him equal. On a Beatles forum, those people will take The Beatles. So who is right? Again, it's subjective for the most part. I certainly would not take The Smiths over the Beatles eight days a week 'good song though,' maybe a 50/50 split, but I do think their respective strength of songs is really unrivaled in music. Maybe tomorrow if I'm feeling spry I will sit down and compare and contrast their best songs and we can make this really interesting. Because at the end of the day that's what it all comes down to. Screw influence and sales. The Eagles have the second best selling album in history 'I believe' and I will curse the day I meet someone who calls them the second best band ever.
 
Of course not - the post exists to clear up the huge misconception that Morrissey has ever been a solo artist. He never has. Not once. But he does clearly deserve credit for continuing to co-write songs after The Smiths broke up. For finding songwriters/musicians/producers etc to work with, and for taking the big risk of working with relatively little known people.

I sort of follow your logic here, but I feel that this post exists to take a swipe at Johnny Marr, which I don't really get. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
I can't stand early Beatles stuff, the covers are the best bit's "Money" "Twist and Shout" "You Really got a hold on me" . Whereas I could readily listen to Hand In Glove now.

The Beatles had a grander scale and better drugs..
 
Madcap;1986.677457 said:
What a bunch of long-winded posts that amount to nothing. Remove your fanboy heads' from your collective asses and judge objectively. The Beatles win hands down. The Stones come in second. Yet I'd rather listen to Moz/The Smiths singles over the two mentioned prior.
Hey Madcap, If I may, I think you're being a little unkind. The analysis has been fair minded and well written and the posters here are anything but fanboys. And I'm sorry, unless you're some kind of omnipotent being, we can't be objective (including you). It has been stated more than once that it is all taste and opinion but that does not preclude the right to comment and analyse.
 
Of course not - the post exists to clear up the huge misconception that Morrissey has ever been a solo artist. He never has. Not once. But he does clearly deserve credit for continuing to co-write songs after The Smiths broke up. For finding songwriters/musicians/producers etc to work with, and for taking the big risk of working with relatively little known people.

Okay. How about: "Few musical artists continue to thrive after leaving behind the band with which they originally found success".
 
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