get your facts straight Part 2: Rick & Bruce's betrayal (the Dummies themselves)

Re: Joyce v. Morrissey Decision - Peter Gibson L.J.

Peter Gibson L.J.:

From the criticisms which Mr Rosen Q.C. sought to make of the judgment of His Honour Judge Weeks Q.C. it became apparent that what may have motivated the appeal, brought as it is only by Mr Morrissey and not by Mr Marr, was the judge's assessment of Mr Morrissey. That understandably rankled with Mr Morrissey. The judge explained why he needed to give his assessment of the witnesses. He had pointed out that no express agreement had been pleaded but that it was possible in law for an agreement rebutting the presumption in section 24, Partnership Act 1890 to be inferred from the conduct of the partners, and this led him to say a little about the credibility of the four partners. As he said, a lot depended on their version of events at which they were present. He had seen Mr Joyce, Mr Rourke and Mr Marr cross-examined for about three-quarters of a day each and Mr Morrissey cross-examined for over a day. The judge therefore was in a good position to assess each of them as a witness. He*250 said of Mr Joyce and Mr Rourke that they had impressed him as straightforward and honest. He continued:

Mr Morrissey is a more complicated character. He did not find giving evidence an easy or happy experience. To me at least he appeared devious, truculent and unreliable where his own interests were at stake.

The judge was also critical of Mr Marr as seeming to the judge to be "willing to embroider his evidence to a point where he became less credible". He concluded that where Mr Morrissey's evidence differed from that of Mr Joyce and Mr Rourke, he preferred that of Mr Joyce and Mr Rourke.

Mr Rosen suggested that the judge's assessment of Mr Morrissey was unfair. That criticism appears to have been at least in part based on a misapprehension of the import of the judge's words. No dishonesty was imputed to Mr Morrissey by Mr Davis Q.C. for Mr Joyce nor do I read the judge's comments as amounting to a finding of dishonesty. We were taken by Mr Rosen to parts of the transcript of Mr Morrissey's cross-examination and we have had the opportunity to read further parts of the transcript, and it has to be said that even without observing Mr Morrissey's demeanour in the witness-box the objective reader would not be able to find him to have been a good witness. I would add that Mr Davis' cross-examination is notable both for its thoroughness, which Mr Morrissey no doubt found uncomfortable, and scrupulous fairness. Mr Rosen has not been able to persuade me that the judge was not entitled to form the view which he did. The judge had to choose between conflicting evidence and it was entirely proper for him to explain in the way that he did why he preferred Mr Joyce's and Mr Rourke's evidence to that of Mr Morrissey and Mr Marr.

Nor am I persuaded that this experienced judge, in going through item by item what had been pleaded item by item on behalf of Mr Morrissey as the facts and matters from which the alleged agreement as to unequal shares of the partnership profits was to be inferred, fell into the trap of "compartmentalisation" and failed to take an overall view when he found that no contrary agreement was proved. In my judgment he properly dealt with every point raised and was entitled to conclude as he did.

This is an appeal on the facts. But it has not been shown that the judge made an error on any finding of fact whatsoever. The two findings on which Mr Rosen concentrated his attack were the findings that Mr Joyce did not study the 1983/84 accounts when sent to him on July 4, 1986 and the finding that Mr Rourke did not say in the silent presence of Mr Joyce to Mr Savage in 1987 at the Woolhall Studios, "We get 10 per cent". It is wholly unsurprising that Mr Joyce, like Mr Rourke, did not study the accounts, sent as they were under cover of a bland*251 letter from Mr Bennet-Smith not drawing attention to the profit shares. The judge found that Mr Joyce and Mr Rourke were not financially sophisticated or aware and even Mr Morrissey and Mr Marr both accepted that they themselves would not have considered the accounts in any detail, if at all. When one reads the witness statements and transcripts of the evidence of Mr Savage on the one hand and Mr Joyce and Mr Rourke on the other on what was said or not said in the brief meeting between them at the Woolhall Studios, itis obvious that there was evidence which might have enabled the judge to prefer the evidence of Mr Savage. But we do not have the advantage, enjoyed by the judge, of seeing Mr Savage give his evidence and there are other factors which cast grave doubt on the accuracy of that evidence. They include the delay in making the allegation and the absence of any mention of the allegation in correspondence with Mr Joyce's solicitor where it might have been expected to have been mentioned. As Mr Savage himself said in his cross- examination, he had had to remind himself of the discussions at the Woolhall Studios when different law firms became involved in the case. In my judgment it is impossible to say that the judge erred in his finding against Mr Savage's version of what occurred.

For these as well as the reasons given by Waller L.J. and in acceptance of the contentions of Mr Davis and Mr Cullen in their meticulously prepared and helpful skeleton argument, I am in no doubt but that this appeal must be dismissed.

Appeal dismissed with costs to be taxed if not agreed; legal aid taxation of plaintiff's costs between November 1, 1997 and March 10, 1998; application for leave to appeal to the House of Lords refused.

(c) Sweet & Maxwell Limited

END OF DOCUMENT
 
Re: I DO NOT LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY BAD ABOUT WONDERFUL ANDY ROURKE.

Andy Rourke did nothing wrong and he never does. He is by far the niceist one in The Smiths. Remember with out Andy Rourke there would be no Smiths. Why do you think things went wrong when they tryed to replace Andy the hard working Andy with that Craig bloke because Craig just couldn't cut it and wouldn't work as hard. Andy could do anything on the guitar he could play tunes within tunes and he new more about music than Johnny Marr did, Andy had to tell Johnny about music that Johnny had no idea about. Andy's kind, quiet, intelligent and soft ways always shine out against the hard Ego, money and fame driven Marr and Morrissey, I don't know about Mike. But what I do know is I will always be on Andy's side, Andy is a true artist and musician who has never sold out and he always stayed true to the music not all the fluff and ego bosting, Andy is genuin person and has taken a lot of shit. Because that is the most important thing isn't it the music not what goes on behind the scenes?
 
Re: "wonderful Andy Rourke "?

Truth hurts huh?
Then if you don't like it , you're gonna have to goback to andyrourke.com
this is no place for miserable traitors
 
Re: Joyce v. Morrissey Decision - Peter Gibson L.J.

So there ya go. There's a lot in there that I've never heard about before!
I don't know if I should've read that, though, because now I think Morrissey
is in the wrong. I can understand Morrissey's feelings totally, and I think he's right to be mad over being called "devious" and "unreliable" in that manner, but Marr did the smart thing and walked away. No one was gonna overturn that decision, because as Waller stressed, it was over facts not law. Judges don't overrule findings of facts unless there's really no evidence to support them. So when Morrissey says it's just a bunch of judges with the same backround, etc., that's not valid. They've gotta give huge deference because the trial court is the one in position to evaluate the evidence, like the witness testimony.

Anyway, Morrissey can do his media campaign against Joyce, going on about Joyce's sex life during the Smiths, but all of that is irrelevant. It was his burden to prove there was an agreement, and he just couldn't establish that.
That's not to say that Joyce is being totally honest. He may very well have known he was only getting 10%, and if that's the case he's a dick to sue and knows in his heart he's a dick. But I don't know that, and the court had a sound basis for their ruling. I'd probably have made the same decision....
 
Incredible Research- Well Done!!

Thank you for sharing that amazing research... it sheds a lot of light on the matter... I'm not a lawyer (even if I was- I'm an American and know that the legal system is a little bit different in the U.K.) so I'm not going to pretend to undesrtand these documents completely- but it is fascinating all the same!!

cheers!
 
Re: Incredible Research- Well Done!!

> Thank you for sharing that amazing research... it sheds a lot of light on
> the matter... I'm not a lawyer (even if I was- I'm an American and know
> that the legal system is a little bit different in the U.K.) so I'm not
> going to pretend to undesrtand these documents completely- but it is
> fascinating all the same!!

> cheers!

I thought it was too. Yeah, I was on WestLaw, and saw they had UK cases, so I thought I'd have a looksie. Waller was kinda harsh in his last paragraph before his conclusion! If you read between the lines he was basically calling Morrissey an ignorant layman who can't grasp the law! I don't know, the whole thing makes me sad. I didn't post that to make Morrissey upset if he stops by here. I think he's sincere that he doesn't feel he wronged Joyce, and anyway, there's just something not right about *The Smiths* suing each other. But oh well...perhaps he needed a jury he could woo....
 
>4. The evidence was overwhelming that, in any event up to July 1985, there had been no agreement between the members of the group rebutting the presumption of equality.

OOOOOHH!!!

Now the Judges are lying are they?
 
Re: Incredible Research- Well Done!!

Thorpe says:
>>>>>
Mr Davis told us that in many instances Mr Morrissey was candid to his own disadvantage. What the transcripts reveal to me is that Mr Morrissey was a litigant who fell into the common trap of understanding the adversarial process as either*249 obliging him or alternatively presenting him with the opportuntiy to fight a war of words with his cross-examiner. As many famous trials have demonstrated, however intelligent and gifted the litigant, the ground upon which the contest takes place is so uneven that he is inevitably worsted. By misinterpreting his role Mr Morrissey clearly forfeited the judge's sympathy and I suspect that the judge intended to convey no more than that Mr Morrissey's first priority had been to fence with Mr Davis rather than to concentrate on giving answers that were clear, relevant and helpful to the judge in carrying out his difficult task.
 
Re: "wonderful Andy Rourke "?

> Truth hurts huh?
> Then if you don't like it , you're gonna have to goback to andyrourke.com
> this is no place for miserable traitors

Traitors???????????????

How is Andy a traitor?

You are too weird!
 
Re: Incredible Research- Well Done!!

"...the ground upon which the contest takes place is so uneven", meaning that no matter how "intelligent and gifted", someone on the stand can never match nor defeat the verbal/mental skills of a lawyer? Please...

Fascinating stuff though. Thanks for digging (dredging?) it up. While I don't think the only reason for Moz' dismissed appeal was the "old boys network" at work, these three little piggies do sound incredibly similiar in their summations. They probably burst the same facial blood vessels drinking together and wear the same brand of underwear.

kl

> Thorpe says:
> Mr Davis told us that in many instances Mr Morrissey was candid to his own
> disadvantage. What the transcripts reveal to me is that Mr Morrissey was a
> litigant who fell into the common trap of understanding the adversarial
> process as either*249 obliging him or alternatively presenting him with
> the opportuntiy to fight a war of words with his cross-examiner. As many
> famous trials have demonstrated, however intelligent and gifted the
> litigant, the ground upon which the contest takes place is so uneven that
> he is inevitably worsted. By misinterpreting his role Mr Morrissey clearly
> forfeited the judge's sympathy and I suspect that the judge intended to
> convey no more than that Mr Morrissey's first priority had been to fence
> with Mr Davis rather than to concentrate on giving answers that were
> clear, relevant and helpful to the judge in carrying out his difficult
> task.
> Wouldn't you love to see a video of this testimony?
 
Re: Incredible Research- Well Done!!

> "...the ground upon which the contest takes place is so uneven",
> meaning that no matter how "intelligent and gifted", someone on
> the stand can never match nor defeat the verbal/mental skills of a lawyer?
> Please...

> Fascinating stuff though. Thanks for digging (dredging?) it up. While I
> don't think the only reason for Moz' dismissed appeal was the "old
> boys network" at work, these three little piggies do sound incredibly
> similiar in their summations. They probably burst the same facial blood
> vessels drinking together and wear the same brand of underwear.

On second thought from my previous comment, I guess I can understand Moz
not walking away like Marr, because the "devious, unreliable" comments
do seem uncalled for and he's got his name to defend. But outside
of that, well...Moz sounds wrong on the central issues, or
at least unable to prove otherwise.
 
A Video Of His Testimony WOULD Be Priceless!!
 
Re: Incredible Research- Well Done!!

very compelling stuff. i almost feel bad for joyce. life must suck when you're so stupid that you don't think to wonder why you're getting less money than your bandmates until nearly a decade after the breakup of said band!
 
Re: I DO NOT LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY BAD ABOUT WONDERFUL ANDY ROURKE.

Remember when you listen to The Smiths each time for the rest of your life. who played the bass? To me it simple. The fighting between each other is that. He was part of The Smiths and should be remembered by us for that without any tainting.
 
Re: Joyce v. Morrissey Decision - Peter Gibson L.J.

Thank you very much for sharing this with us. I had always been interested in reading more of the official documents surrounding the case. A couple of questions for you:

* Do you think Morrissey has read these? And if he hasn't, do you think reading them could possibly change his mind in appealing the case?

* And, do you know if it's possible to get the tesimonials on-line anywhere? It would be fascinating to read the blow-by-blow accounts. It would be public information one would think. (Although possibly from the stature of the litigants it could be suppressed I suppose.)

Thank you again.
 
This is a much better soap opera than Port Charles

Sad it involves real people, especially senior citizens and mothers with kids. I don't care if the judge ruled correctly, you don't mess with elderly people.

Did I tell you Caleb is returning Monday Sept 30th?


http://www.michaeleaston.com
 
Re: Joyce v. Morrissey Decision - Peter Gibson L.J.

> Thank you very much for sharing this with us. I had always been interested
> in reading more of the official documents surrounding the case. A couple
> of questions for you:

> * Do you think Morrissey has read these? And if he hasn't, do you think
> reading them could possibly change his mind in appealing the case?

I'm sure he must've read it. Over and over! Letting his blood boil!

Change his mind? Eh. He doesn't seem the type! And I guess I can respect a guy for not wanting to give in if he feels he's wronged. He was there, he lived it, and he was in the court room and lived that too, and we weren't. But it does seem like he just thinks the law should be different. It all could've been avoided so easily, that's what's sad about it! That Partnernaship Act is really f***ing old and I'd assume most people don't give a shit about it because it's just a default rule. Everyone's just gonna make their express agreements and the presumptions in that Act are gone. But for a ROCK BAND, that's where the people involved probably wouldn't be thinking about such things.

> * And, do you know if it's possible to get the tesimonials on-line
> anywhere? It would be fascinating to read the blow-by-blow accounts. It
> would be public information one would think. (Although possibly from the
> stature of the litigants it could be suppressed I suppose.)

Yeah, I wanna see that shit too. I can't get it on Lexis or Westlaw. Don't know the answer to your question, but my hunch is (in America anyway) that trial transcripts, unless sealed for some special reason, are public. But maybe they don't want it *too*public, or don't see the need for it to be? So you probably have to pay money to like the stenographer to get a copy, or something like that. I really don't know, does anyone else? Somehow I think if the Morrissey cross examinaton transcripts were easy to get, we'd all have seen em by now.

> Thank you again.

Aw, if you're gonna be nice to me I'm gonna feel bad for arguing with you so much. Glad you liked it.
 
Re: Joyce v. Morrissey Decision - Peter Gibson L.J.

> I'm sure he must've read it. Over and over! Letting his blood boil!

One would think so but....

> Change his mind? Eh. He doesn't seem the type! And I guess I can respect a
> guy for not wanting to give in if he feels he's wronged. He was there, he
> lived it, and he was in the court room and lived that too, and we weren't.
> But it does seem like he just thinks the law should be different.

I can see how he feels he was wronged by the decision. I can also understand the point of continuing the case due to this feeling. However, reading through the arguments for dismissing the appeal and also the reasoning behind the decision for the initial case, they all make very valid points and very fair (in my humble opinion) reasoning behind the decisions. I would like to think that being fully informed of the decision (ie reading these documents) that Morrissey sees (or at least understands) the extent of the law and how it is applied to his situation. Of course, still unhappy with this he could lobby to have the law changed but while the law stands and its interpretation remains unambiguous he's going to have a very rough time of changing the minds of those who have the power to decide his financial fate.

The part of Morrissey "fencing with words" with the cross-examiner caught my eye. It seemed to only put him at a disadvantage and detracted from his argument; instead it focused on his character and possibly riled up the judge, again the person who was to decide his fate.

> Yeah, I wanna see that shit too. I can't get it on Lexis or Westlaw. Don't
> know the answer to your question, but my hunch is (in America anyway) that
> trial transcripts, unless sealed for some special reason, are public. But
> maybe they don't want it *too*public, or don't see the need for it to be?
> So you probably have to pay money to like the stenographer to get a copy,
> or something like that. I really don't know, does anyone else? Somehow I
> think if the Morrissey cross examinaton transcripts were easy to get, we'd
> all have seen em by now.

True, but then again we haven't (okay big assumption, I haven't) seen the previous documents before. I got to thinking of all the other things that would interest me to read but yet have been too lazy to search for.

> Aw, if you're gonna be nice to me I'm gonna feel bad for arguing with you
> so much. Glad you liked it.

All because we disagree on certain points doesn't mean there should be antagonism in future communications. I'm afraid I have the memory of a newt and get over these things very quickly. I do remember though, you supported me once (convincingly, may I add) in regards to the faults inherent in religion, I'm grateful for that and so there were never any hard feelings.
 
Re: I DO NOT LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY BAD THINGS ABOUT WONDERFUL BRIAN GASKILL
 
Re: I DO LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY BAD THINGS ABOUT WONDERFUL BRIAN GASKILL

and Im glad Livvie shot him today. Lets hope he is dead for good this time.
 
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