TTY: Music awards are none of your business

Re: New on TTY: "Music awards are none of your business."

Drivel.

 

[BrummieBoy]

It's your choice to have him all over the bloody place isn't it?

Nobody else seems to want him.

Incorrect. Kewpie is not the site proprietor. She will relay her concerns to DavidT if and when she considers I have broken the site TOS. If DavidT decides to adopt a new framework of discussion which enacts The Rules of allyouneedismorrisey.com then I will be delighted to depart with a smirk on my face. However, you may well find yourself banned under any such regime. In fact, Charlie, why don't you fcuk off to AYNIM right now to join the rest of the arse-licker cult casualties there? I trust this reply is helpful to you and now request you to return to the topic of the thread.

best
BB

"Welcome to All You Need Is Morrissey, a fan forum for admirers of Morrissey and/or his music. Please take a few minutes to read the rules.

1. Conduct Towards Morrissey (and Other Artists)
We're all here because we like Morrissey as an individual, an artist or both. We hope that most of the discussion will be positive in tone but critical comment is just as valid provided you understand the difference between reasoned critique and blatant slamming. This extends to discussions of other artists, whatever their connection to the world of Morrissey and his music."


http://allyouneedismorrissey.com/boardrules/

 

[Reverend Tutu]

i see, so its more the content rather than the style of the prose which is what i though you meant. well to debate that would take a long time but i will say having spent my first twenty years of my life with some extremely poor people and then the last 15 or so with some extremely wealthy, well it has been eye opening. to see people that i grew up with echo what the influential rich say and want has been sad. i mean look at the gun control conversation in america as an example of what i mean. or taxation for that matter. ive never seen so many people push for bills so counter to there own prosperity. health care and union employment is another good example of people voting against there interests. ive connections to some politicians in maryland and looking at it from the inside as a silent observer has really been eye opening for me. my wife also works in health care as a nurse practitioner and the shady stuff that goes on there through billing and insurance companies has also been terrible. personally i think freds avatar is still accurate that morrisey doesnt like people including his fans but like everyone, read conflicted, he gets worked up until he blurts angrily and shortly until he just leaves it. also theres the point that whenever morrissey tries to go into length all we get from most is what a wall of words and im not reading all that and its to dense etc etc. that length, its just a rant.

i will also say that i think brand very intelligent if not very funny

Hello Anon. No, it's actually more the style than the content. I would say that there isn't much content to what Morrissey has said in his article, and this is because he has hobbled his own thinking by being closed to outside influences that might help him grow. This is a matter of style - in this case, a style that prevents content. To put it simply - it doesn't matter which side of a debate you are on, it is in everyone's interest that the debate is carried out at a high level, without obscurantism or emotional blackmail, and with informed opinions. I would personally say that discussion is preferable to debate, in that if you have a discussion, you assume that you might learn something from who you're talking to (and I think all of us can still learn things), whereas, in a debate, the assumption is usually that you pick a side and stick to it, whatever new information comes in, so the temptation for ad hominem attacks becomes much greater in a debate. Nonetheless, I can see that perhaps the more pressurised, dynamic nature of a debate might be preferred by some.

Regarding the question of the divide between rich and poor - one of the great tragedies is that the poor are discouraged from educating themselves, often by their peers, who see this as a class betrayal rather than the true empowerment it should be understood as. I am talking as someone who grew up on the poverty line and who is among the first generation of my family to go to university. (If it comes to that, I'm actually living below the poverty line now.)

To educate oneself is to become informed on the issues that have bearing on one's own life, apart from anything else. Unfortunately, education in Britain (and elsewhere) has been declining for decades, so that for most who grow up in poverty, real education is an unknown unknown - that is, people don't even know they're missing it. (There is so much to know and to discover - thousands of years of thought and history that tend to go ignored - that I think educational reforms must be the most important changes to make in building a fairer society.)

Morrissey has the wealth, at least, to educate himself. He also has the platform that means educating himself should be a duty (unless he thinks of himself simply as an entertainer, which he doesn't seem to). Therefore, I do feel that it's worth pointing out that he has failed to educate himself and that he is among those who keep the public debate on certain subjects at a very crude level.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Amazing or scary BB...but we are of the same mind here. I posted just after you without reading what you had written and we came to the same conclusion.

For me his music will remain in a glass case. Unaffected and untarnished by whatever he might say or do in the future. Trouble Loves Me moves me as much today as it did when I first heard it. He has given us a great gift. His talent for writing and emoting a feeling that no other artist of either music or screen has come close to equaling. A number of his songs have made me laugh out loud and brought me to tears....sometimes within the same song. His music lives in my heart, and in my mind and in my soul. I will always be thankful for that, and I would be willing to bet a lifetime achievement award will be waiting one day for him...if he chooses to accept it.

I agree with a lot of this. I find myself deeply moved by some of his word and singing, only to have that wonderful reverie ruined by his absurd teenage tantrums onstage and online. As an adult paying consumer, I reserve the right to pick and choose what I accept from a music producer/entrepreneur like Morrissey. When he is conveying his seemingly sincere quandaries about his stunted emotional development and failure to form interpersonal relationship, as a husband, father and friend of many, I find it dreadfully moving that anyone could end up in such a mess after being given so many opportunities. However, when he turns to his rageaholic contempt for anyone and everyone who disagrees with his simplistic teenagerisms, then I reach for my metaphorical shot-gun. The stage exists simply so he can be seen singing, it conveys no hierarchical superiority, nor does his beautiful voice. Unfortunately, he has invested his adult life in the collapsed detritus of being both a 'post punk rebel' and a 'star', not realising that they cancel each other out. I will continue to monitor his work and pick and choose which elements to enjoy and which to either criticise or ridicule. We no longer live in a world where celebrity entitlement agendas to be shielded from scrutiny by a compliant media exists. Like every other imperious pseud, Morrissey uses TTY without a BTL ability for anyone to respond. It's almost like a royal or papal edict. And on one level it's funny, but on another level, a tragic indictment of his estrangement from consensual reality.

best
BB

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Incorrect. Kewpie is not the site proprietor. She will relay her concerns to DavidT if and when she considers I have broken the site TOS. If DavidT decides to adopt a new framework of discussion which enacts The Rules of allyouneedismorrisey.com then I will be delighted to depart with a smirk on my face. However, you may well find yourself banned under any such regime. In fact, Charlie, why don't you fcuk off to AYNIM right now to join the rest of the arse-licker cult casualties there? I trust this reply is helpful to you and now request you to return to the topic of the thread.

best
BB

"Welcome to All You Need Is Morrissey, a fan forum for admirers of Morrissey and/or his music. Please take a few minutes to read the rules.

1. Conduct Towards Morrissey (and Other Artists)
We're all here because we like Morrissey as an individual, an artist or both. We hope that most of the discussion will be positive in tone but critical comment is just as valid provided you understand the difference between reasoned critique and blatant slamming. This extends to discussions of other artists, whatever their connection to the world of Morrissey and his music."


http://allyouneedismorrissey.com/boardrules/

My comment was none of your business.

 

[Anonymous]

Hello Anon. No, it's actually more the style than the content. I would say that there isn't much content to what Morrissey has said in his article, and this is because he has hobbled his own thinking by being closed to outside influences that might help him grow. This is a matter of style - in this case, a style that prevents content. To put it simply - it doesn't matter which side of a debate you are on, it is in everyone's interest that the debate is carried out at a high level, without obscurantism or emotional blackmail, and with informed opinions. I would personally say that discussion is preferable to debate, in that if you have a discussion, you assume that you might learn something from who you're talking to (and I think all of us can still learn things), whereas, in a debate, the assumption is usually that you pick a side and stick to it, whatever new information comes in, so the temptation for <i>ad hominem</i> attacks becomes much greater in a debate. Nonetheless, I can see that perhaps the more pressurised, dynamic nature of a debate might be preferred by some.

Regarding the question of the divide between rich and poor - one of the great tragedies is that the poor are discouraged from educating themselves, often by their peers, who see this as a class betrayal rather than the true empowerment it should be understood as. I am talking as someone who grew up on the poverty line and who is among the first generation of my family to go to university. (If it comes to that, I'm actually living below the poverty line now.)

To educate oneself is to become informed on the issues that have bearing on one's own life, apart from anything else. Unfortunately, education in Britain (and elsewhere) has been declining for decades, so that for most who grow up in poverty, real education is an unknown unknown - that is, people don't even know they're missing it. (There is so much to know and to discover - thousands of years of thought and history that tend to go ignored - that I think educational reforms must be the most important changes to make in building a fairer society.)

Morrissey has the wealth, at least, to educate himself. He also has the platform that means educating himself should be a duty (unless he thinks of himself simply as an entertainer, which he doesn't seem to). Therefore, I do feel that it's worth pointing out that he has failed to educate himself and that he is among those who keeps the public debate on certain subjects at a very crude level.

"Regarding the question of the divide between rich and poor - one of the great tragedies is that the poor are discouraged from educating themselves, often by their peers, who see this as a class betrayal rather than the true empowerment it should be understood as. I am talking as someone who grew up on the poverty line and who is among the first generation of my family to go to university. (If it comes to that, I'm actually living below the poverty line now.)"


whos doing the discouraging and why? i would say the wealthy elite with fairly through obvious resources and control for there own benefit. i dont agree much that his behavior in educating or influencing himself really counts as an accepted form or use of the term writing style. if i mentioned capotes writing style to anyone i dont think "what are the sources for his personal philosophy", would come to mind. they would use the word content for that. sorry to hear about the below the poverty line bit as i grew up in public housing in a very isolated weird weird place and feel for you. through no work or effort of my own i had my financial fortunes change but i remember the struggle very well. i actually told my wife when we met that i had no ambitions to ever make her money. i forwarded her that i was very serious and that if i ever did earn money it would be incidental. she laughed said she already had money and that her career would provide enough anyway that we wouldnt even need to ever even ask for it ( all of her brothers and sisters do unfortunetly and one of them is super educated though the other isnt at all).

 

[evennow]

I agree with a lot of this. I find myself deeply moved by some of his word and singing, only to have that wonderful reverie ruined by his absurd teenage tantrums onstage and online. As an adult paying consumer, I reserve the right to pick and choose what I accept from a music producer/entrepreneur like Morrissey. When he is conveying his seemingly sincere quandaries about his stunted emotional development and failure to form interpersonal relationship, as a husband, father and friend of many, I find it dreadfully moving that anyone could end up in such a mess after being given so many opportunities. However, when he turns to his rageaholic contempt for anyone and everyone who disagrees with his simplistic teenagerisms, then I reach for my metaphorical shot-gun. The stage exists simply so he can be seen singing, it conveys no hierarchical superiority, nor does his beautiful voice. Unfortunately, he has invested his adult life in the collapsed detritus of being both a 'post punk rebel' and a 'star', not realising that they cancel each other out. I will continue to monitor his work and pick and choose which elements to enjoy and which to either criticise or ridicule. We no longer live in a world where celebrity entitlement agendas to be shielded from scrutiny by a compliant media exists. Like every other imperious pseud, Morrissey uses TTY without a BTL ability for anyone to respond. It's almost like a royal or papal edict. And on one level it's funny, but on another level, a tragic indictment of his estrangement from consensual reality.

best
BB

What can I say except that you make very good points. But just a thought...not that you need my input on how to conduct yourself. I enjoy your writing style and it is more than completely obvious that you are far more intelligent that anyone here gives you credit for. It would be nice though to read your thoughts on the things you enjoy about Morrissey. If you were to do that, it would make for equally interesting reading. I respect your beliefs and the way in which you are so clearly able to articulate them. I wish we could see more of the enjoyment you receive from his music. What would be the problem with that? Either way...I will keep reading.

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

"Regarding the question of the divide between rich and poor - one of the great tragedies is that the poor are discouraged from educating themselves, often by their peers, who see this as a class betrayal rather than the true empowerment it should be understood as. I am talking as someone who grew up on the poverty line and who is among the first generation of my family to go to university. (If it comes to that, I'm actually living below the poverty line now.)"


whos doing the discouraging and why? i would say the wealthy elite with fairly through obvious resources and control for there own benefit. i dont agree much that his behavior in educating or influencing himself really counts as an accepted form or use of the term writing style. if i mentioned capotes writing style to anyone i dont think "what are the sources for his personal philosophy", would come to mind. they would use the word content for that. sorry to hear about the below the poverty line bit as i grew up in public housing in a very isolated weird weird place and feel for you. through no work or effort of my own i had my financial fortunes change but i remember the struggle very well. i actually told my wife when we met that i had no ambitions to ever make her money. i forwarded her that i was very serious and that if i ever did earn money it would be incidental. she laughed said she already had money and that her career would provide enough anyway that we wouldnt even need to ever even ask for it ( all of her brothers and sisters do unfortunetly and one of them is super educated though the other isnt at all).

In the UK the Reverend is right, certainly for my generation, learning was actively discouraged among your peers at school. Add the fact that most of the teachers had little interest in bucking the trend, my schooling was an utter waste of time. I failed everything at school but passed everything since up to degree level. My kids are in school now and at Primary level it's fine but at 11-16 the emphasis seems to be on conformity and passing tests rather than learning. If your parents aren't too fussed about you taking anything on board your future could well be a struggle. This isn't to say that those above aren't great contributors to this, they politicize the school system instead of using it as a tool to educate. Those that don't fit in will be lost to it.

On the Morrissey point, he's always spoke in the same way, it's his mentality rather than his education that is the issue, if you think he has one, which I don't. No matter how much you nurture your nature will still shine through.

 

[Anonymous]

In the UK the Reverend is right, certainly for my generation, learning was actively discouraged among your peers at school. Add the fact that most of the teachers had little interest in bucking the trend, my schooling was an utter waste of time. I failed everything at school but passed everything since up to degree level. My kids are in school now and at Primary level it's fine but at 11-16 the emphasis seems to be on conformity and passing tests rather than learning. If your parents aren't too fussed about you taking anything on board your future could well be a struggle. This isn't to say that those above aren't great contributors to this, they politicize the school system instead of using it as a tool to educate. Those that don't fit in will be lost to it.

On the Morrissey point, he's always spoke in the same way, it's his mentality rather than his education that is the issue, if you think he has one, which I don't. No matter how much you nurture your nature will still shine through.

true morrissey is very very unchanging. interesting about the school experience as that was not the case here when i was a child. the most popular kids were those who were all good educational scorers as well with the usual exceptions of course (the im just that good looking person, or perhaps the edgy guy/girl etc) and they all encouraged being smart and able to one up. i grew up in a very small town though so theres only one school where all the kids go both rich and poor. no decent private school anywhere and those that did exist were just extreme presbyterian. i think this was a really nice boon as we benefited by the exposure to different perspectives and having direct influence from them. i do think it different if you live in a large area where the school you go to will be almost 100 percent made up of kids from your own poor economic background as i think poor kids defend there emotions by saying there limited access to educational success is a choiceand that they just dont want and kick anyone who reminds them of that fact. i passed my classes with the lowest 60 percent out of a hundred, the absolute lowest passable score which i find funny but it wasnt out of being discouraged by my peers it was because the work was just so simple and sad i couldnt bear to waste time on it. i just read novels all day until i was able to leave. my parents tried everything but i was pretty stubborn about it. progress reports, i had to eat with a councilor for a year because i they thought i wasnt eating (i was just skinny) the whole deal. this was also of course the nineties which were in general pretty nice times in terms of economics across the board and when popular culture was in active rejection of its recent past the eighties and what had defined it nationally.

 

[BrummieBoy]

What can I say except that you make very good points. But just a thought...not that you need my input on how to conduct yourself. I enjoy your writing style and it is more than completely obvious that you are far more intelligent that anyone here gives you credit for. It would be nice though to read your thoughts on the things you enjoy about Morrissey. If you were to do that, it would make for equally interesting reading. I respect your beliefs and the way in which you are so clearly able to articulate them. I wish we could see more of the enjoyment you receive from his music. What would be the problem with that? Either way...I will keep reading.

When WPINOYB was released, I couldn't have been more supportive or effusive in my praise. I thought it was a marvellous album, the first that actually saw him even attempt to submerge his Vocal Ego within the Musical Tapestries of the band and producer. It also seemed that, at long last, he'd ditched the absurd attempts to appeal to some fictitious Middle American Radio Friendly Green Day Fanbase and had let rip with genuinely emotional music and words.

Within weeks he had reverted to form and began a woeful and wilfully self-destructive media campaign to destroy WPINOYB. I've had a wonderful day and evening. My son is 20, we've been partying, watching the 6 Nations Rugby. Typing these ruminations whilst watching The Voice and sipping Prosecco is hardly a huge effort. Either Morrissey is lying about his emotional life or he's in the direst possible existential circumstances. Given his recent supposed brush with death, you'd think he'd stop being a prat and focus on his swansong. I still have hopes he can bring his career to a dignified and inspired crescendo, but that won't happen if all he ever receives is an echo-chamber of fawning servile endorsement from his 'fans'. He needs to rip it up and start again. I've no intention of pandering to his nonsense. He has a body of work. He needs to respect and protect his legacy. Anyone who has ever been moved by his work has a duty to tell it like it T-I-S. He's got maybe one last chance. Will he step up to the plate, to borrow another American cultural motif?

best
BB

 

[Anonymous]

I haven’t been to this website in awhile. Kind of stopped “following” Morrissey since his Autobiography came out. Always interested in seeing what he has to say on True To You, because a lot of times, it’s funny. Unfortunately, not in a way he wants it to be. When I started reading his recent post, I just wanted to stop after the first paragraph. You can just imagine him sitting there, seething with his anger. He concerns himself with such petty things. Why can’t he just let things go, and get back to the insightful observations of life he once gave to us? I thought the Autobiography was such a disappointment. I mean, 30-40 pages about the court case, where he could have talked about things that matter. After I finished the book, I stacked up all my CD’s and the book, and threw them in the trash. His last album? Really? It was horrifying, and I could barely make it through one listen. I’m just going to focus on the music of The Smiths, and what he gave to me when I was young, and needed to hear someone who understood my feelings of being alone in the world.

-CC
http://fromthebar.me/

 

[evennow]

When WPINOYB was released, I couldn't have been more supportive or effusive in my praise. I thought it was a marvellous album, the first that actually saw him even attempt to submerge his Vocal Ego within the Musical Tapestries of the band and producer. It also seemed that, at long last, he'd ditched the absurd attempts to appeal to some fictitious Middle American Radio Friendly Green Day Fanbase and had let rip with genuinely emotional music and words.

Within weeks he had reverted to form and began a woeful and wilfully self-destructive media campaign to destroy WPINOYB. I've had a wonderful day and evening. My son is 20, we've been partying, watching the 6 Nations Rugby. Typing these ruminations whilst watching The Voice and sipping Prosecco is hardly a huge effort. Either Morrissey is lying about his emotional life or he's in the direst possible existential circumstances. Given his recent supposed brush with death, you'd think he'd stop being a prat and focus on his swansong. I still have hopes he can bring his career to a dignified and inspired crescendo, but that won't happen if all he ever receives is an echo-chamber of fawning servile endorsement from his 'fans'. He needs to rip it up and start again. I've no intention of pandering to his nonsense. He has a body of work. He needs to respect and protect his legacy. Anyone who has ever been moved by his work has a duty to tell it like it T-I-S. He's got maybe one last chance. Will he step up to the plate, to borrow another American cultural motif?

best
BB

I never fully understood why he seemed to turn his back on fame when he was in the sweet spot of his career. It was there for the taking. He did his part. Made great music that was popular beyond the intellectual set. He was on Saturday Night Live and many late night TV shows that could have acted as a spring board to everything he now claims to have missed out on. I can't believe he wouldn't have been well rewarded and awarded if he had gotten out of his own way.

There is something to be said for self-awareness. It appears this was either not of interest or not brought to his attention. Or if it was, ignored or silenced. It is nice to think that he is ours...a small group of individuals who "get it", but he had the potential to be so much more. At the time, it seemed he didn't care, but now with the recent TTY outbursts it appears that he does. You only get one go at life, and there are certainly things that I regret, and I think he might regret missing out on a certain level of recognition that he richly deserves.

"Regrets...I've had a few...but then again...too many to mention"...Genius

 

[Reverend Tutu]

"Regarding the question of the divide between rich and poor - one of the great tragedies is that the poor are discouraged from educating themselves, often by their peers, who see this as a class betrayal rather than the true empowerment it should be understood as. I am talking as someone who grew up on the poverty line and who is among the first generation of my family to go to university. (If it comes to that, I'm actually living below the poverty line now.)"


whos doing the discouraging and why? i would say the wealthy elite with fairly through obvious resources and control for there own benefit. i dont agree much that his behavior in educating or influencing himself really counts as an accepted form or use of the term writing style. if i mentioned capotes writing style to anyone i dont think "what are the sources for his personal philosophy", would come to mind. they would use the word content for that. sorry to hear about the below the poverty line bit as i grew up in public housing in a very isolated weird weird place and feel for you. through no work or effort of my own i had my financial fortunes change but i remember the struggle very well. i actually told my wife when we met that i had no ambitions to ever make her money. i forwarded her that i was very serious and that if i ever did earn money it would be incidental. she laughed said she already had money and that her career would provide enough anyway that we wouldnt even need to ever even ask for it ( all of her brothers and sisters do unfortunetly and one of them is super educated though the other isnt at all).

I have a feeling we're talking to cross purposes a little, since my point was not to defend any of Morrissey's targets, but to point out the lack of substance in his writing. However, I can respond a little to your question. My answer would be that there's not a single group of people doing this discouraging, but that there is a malaise that can be identified in its symptoms (for instance, falling rates of literacy, prevalence of aggressive interaction on the internet and so on), and that causes should be identified on a case by case basis. Simply saying "a wealthy elite" doesn't really get us anywhere, because we don't know who this indicates, or what they are meant to be doing. Bear in mind, I'm not saying this is wrong. What I am saying is that a) this is no more specific and no more helpful than saying "the powers that be", and b) laying the entirety of a problem at the feet of an entity so vague promotes a feeling of helplessness - "we're not educated because of 'the wealthy elite'" - when people would be better served educating themselves and empowering themselves in order to understand and then to change things for themselves and others, for the better.

In my opinion, one real problem in all popular discourse on social issues at the moment is that it focuses on blame rather than solutions. The 'us and them' mentality perpetuates a problem, and hamstrings any real thought. The real killer is that people readily identify an 'us and them' mentality in their chosen enemy, but seldom in themselves.

Something else - people can readily understand that social change takes time, and a lot of work, that it is an ongoing process. And yet, when it comes to education (I'm not talking about academia here, necessarily, though academia should be promoting education), which is surely the foundation of social change, people think they can ditch it as soon as they've chosen which side they're on. No! Education is a life-long process, and one that, judging by his TTY writings, Morrissey has given up on.

This is rather long, but it pertains to the point about education - the decline is not as simple a matter as something engineered by a wealthy elite. I also recommend this video because it shows that people with opposing politics can discuss things respectfully instead of clinging to the 'us and them' attitude:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOdMBDOj4ec

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

I have a feeling we're talking to cross purposes a little, since my point was not to defend any of Morrissey's targets, but to point out the lack of substance in his writing. However, I can respond a little to your question. My answer would be that there's not a single group of people doing this discouraging, but that there is a malaise that can be identified in its symptoms (for instance, falling rates of literacy, prevalence of aggressive interaction on the internet and so on), and that causes should be identified on a case by case basis. Simply saying "a wealthy elite" doesn't really get us anywhere, because we don't know who this indicates, or what they are meant to be doing. Bear in mind, I'm not saying this is wrong. What I am saying is that a) this is no more specific and no more helpful than saying "the powers that be", and b) laying the entirety of a problem at the feet of an entity so vague promotes a feeling of helplessness - "we're not educated because of 'the wealthy elite'" - when people would be better served educating themselves and empowering themselves in order to understand and then to change things for themselves and others, for the better.

In my opinion, one real problem in all popular discourse on social issues at the moment is that it focuses on blame rather than solutions. The 'us and them' mentality perpetuates a problem, and hamstrings any real thought. The real killer is that people readily identify an 'us and them' mentality in their chosen enemy, but seldom in themselves.

Something else - people can readily understand that social change takes time, and a lot of work, that it is an ongoing process. And yet, when it comes to education (I'm not talking about academia here, necessarily, though academia should be promoting education), which is surely the foundation of social change, people think they can ditch it as soon as they've chosen which side they're on. No! Education is a life-long process, and one that, judging by his TTY writings, Morrissey has given up on.

This is rather long, but it pertains to the point about education - the decline is not as simple a matter as something engineered by a wealthy elite. I also recommend this video because it shows that people with opposing politics can discuss things respectfully instead of clinging to the 'us and them' attitude:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOdMBDOj4ec

It's difficult to get past the us and them attitude when you have people, who hold all the power, who put the squeeze on society in the aim of protecting a few people's interests.

Politically I don't think any extreme works, so in that respect I agree with you, taking fixed sides is unhelpful at best but sometimes, when social engineering has stacked the odds against the whole in the favour of a few, I would argue that it's no bad thing to dig your heels in.

It's helpful to fully explain your argument though.

 

[Reverend Tutu]

What an articulate and well-reasoned post. Are you sure you are on the right web site? After reading your post and considering Morrissey's missive...the word "stunted" seems to come to the forefront of my mind. In many ways it appears that he has not matured past the self-absorbed, self-obsessed stage of life. It is natural when we are young to be focused on our own well being, feelings, and thoughts until we learn that there is a bigger world outside of ourselves and that other peoples' well-being, feelings and thoughts also matter. I don't think he fully ever made it to this place.

His me, me, me way of communicating his thoughts is a little off-putting to say the least, and this is from a fan since the 80's. What must the world outside of his fan base think of his diatribes? Not that he would say he cares, but his writing seems to indicate otherwise.

If he wants to win a "popular" music award (and this is still up for discussion), then hmmmm...what to do....oh...why not try making "popular" music. There is no Critics Choice Awards for music. If there were, he might have won. But to shake a fist at the way things are in reality comes across as a bit delusional.

Thank you.

I'm taking a bit of a break from work, so might not be back on the boards for a while, but just wanted to try and respond a little.

It perhaps sounds like I'm singling Morrissey out, but this is just because I am a Morrissey fan and this is a Morrissey forum. I think that Morrissey's case is symptomatic of what has been happening in our culture for a long time now. Charlie Brooker lampooned this with the comedy series Nathan Barley, in which the journalist Dan Ashcroft writes an article about 'the rise of the idiots' and becomes something of a celebrity among the idiots as a result.

As the Wikipedia entry says: "Ironically, while Dan sees a clear distinction between himself and the 'idiots', he's frequently forced to compromise his own ethics in order to earn a living, and seems to be fighting the dawning realisation that he may actually be the very thing he despises."

Of course, this is a fairly acerbic take on the problem, but, if we continue with these acerbic terms for the sake of illustration, I do get the feeling that Morrissey doesn't even have a dawning realisation that he is 'one of the idiots'. That people look to him for enlightenment is indicative of the general smog of muddle-headedness that we've come to live in.

With regard to Morrissey, I've undergone a process of disenchantment over the last few years, brought to a head by the Penguin 'classic'. I've been so put off in the last few years by his interviews and occasional prose pieces, not to mention behaviour for which we have to give him the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, that I have expected to be similarly disenchanted with his music, but this has not been the case. I think there are different kinds of intelligence, and his intelligence shines in songwriting. What many people don't seem to appreciate is that this doesn't automatically translate into other kinds of intelligence.

"An excellent summary of why this rant is ridiculous. Morrissey still writes like a teenager. He's in his mid-50s. What has he been doing for the last 30 years? He shows no signs of having developed intellectually or emotionally. So many people have invested their own emotional reality in his songs only to have to face the fact that he is a stunted, damaged person who is reduced to communicating from his TTY bunker like some crazed cult leader. He wouldn't last 10 minutes in a structured debate with you, me or any reasonably educated middle-aged person. Presumably, he doesn't care, as he's positioned himself as Patron Saint to Doomed Youth. Unfortunately, singing and writing emotional meltdowns is attractive when you're young, but desperately sad in your dotage.

best
BB"

Thank you. I do think it would be good for many people if they could separate, in their minds and hearts, Morrissey the singer/songwriter from Morrissey the person. Talent alone does not make one a worthy role model, and being a bad role model does not necessarily diminish the value of a person's talent.

"It's difficult to get past the us and them attitude when you have people, who hold all the power, who put the squeeze on society in the aim of protecting a few people's interests."

Yes, I do take your point. Some people are perhaps not to be debated with. But the power to be independent of such people - sorry to repeat myself - again comes primarily from education. That is, even if it comes to all out conflict, then, in the words of Sun Tzu, you should 'know your enemy'. Note that in the original, he also says you need to know yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War#Quotations

TTFN.

 

[evennow]

Of course, this is a fairly acerbic take on the problem, but, if we continue with these acerbic terms for the sake of illustration, I do get the feeling that Morrissey doesn't even have a dawning realisation that he is 'one of the idiots'. That people look to him for enlightenment is indicative of the general smog of muddle-headedness that we've come to live in.

Interesting, but I never did or would consider doing this. I listen to his music because it speaks to me very deeply. I relate to many of the themes of wanting and loneliness that he brings forward so directly and honestly. As I am sure almost everyone here does as well. Taking it past that is, I guess, at one's own risk. An analogy would be if he were the pied piper I would love to listen to his tune as he strolled by, but I would not follow him blindly wherever he might lead.

Many have already posted that he should understand that we are well aware of what the music industry is like. We don't need it spelled out for us. He does best when he speaks to emotion instead of reasonable thought. It appears he has decided to expand his reach, but who is there to grasp it?

 

[Charlie Cheswick]

Interesting, but I never did or would consider doing this. I listen to his music because it speaks to me very deeply. I relate to many of the themes of wanting and loneliness that he brings forward so directly and honestly. As I am sure almost everyone here does as well. Taking it past that is, I guess, at one's own risk. An analogy would be if he were the pied piper I would love to listen to his tune as he strolled by, but I would not follow him blindly wherever he might lead.

Many have already posted that he should understand that we are well aware of what the music industry is like. We don't need it spelled out for us. He does best when he speaks to emotion instead of reasonable thought. It appears he has decided to expand his reach, but who is there to grasp it?

I think he is speaking through emotion, that's exactly what he's doing. He's just a man expressing his opinions, no more, no less. You can agree with them or disagree. I share his opinions on a lot of things, less so others. I love it that his rants are unpolished though, that's what rants should be. Every public person's thoughts seem to be so smoothed out these days, that's if they even choose to say anything, and most don't. Everything has to be over thought, analyzed, analyzed again, and then trotted out in some pompous drool. Well I say f*** that, speak from the hip, Good on Morrissey.

 

[Reverend Tutu]

Couldn't resist a quick soundbite, if this link works:

https://www.facebook.com/BigThinkdotcom/photos/a.10150154426698527.286045.46126453526/10151204285678527/?type=1&theater

Cheers.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Morrissey lambasts Madonna for being invited to The BRITS, yet she's hardly immune from exactly the same forces that are marginalising him. He's 56 and has a niche audience but also a heritage status that allows him to continue to tour even though radio plays and music sales are drying up. The only difference between him and Madonna is the scale of the niche/heritage travelling circus and the fact that Madonna has never been conflicted about maximising her entrepreneurial skills in a capitalist music business.

I'd love to know how Morrissey squares the circle of his absurd conspiracy theory to account for the fact that Madonna has not only been invited to perform at The BRITs but also been banned from the Radio 1 playlists. There is no conspiracy. Young people do not want to listen to the entitlement agendas of micro-celebrities like Morrissey, nor do they want to watch his arena circus where he peddles his clownish post-punk rebellion for £50 a seat. He's as much a part of the music biz Establishment as Madonna but just not as savvy or popular. Both Morrissey and Madonna are work-horses who have put in a civil-service 30 year career in industrial pop music. Madonna has managed her business concerns more efficiently and also balanced her desire for fame with a desire to raise a family. Morrissey appears to have been exclusively fixated on his own failed Fame narrative for the last 3 decades. Perhaps that's why he's so bitter and angry at being ignored at this stage, thus inventing ludicrous 'conspiracy theories' suggesting that his music is ignored at the expense of behemoths like Madonna. As this article shows, that's pure nonsense. There's no law that says young people should listen to and respect late middle-aged post punk 'rebels' by squinting to watch them on an arena stage. They have better things to do with their leisure time and their limited cash than listen to a singing troll lamenting why he's f***ed up his life.

Morrissey worshipped at the altar of fame, bowed before the camera lens when he was young and moderately attractive. No he's late middle-age and resorts to publicising his tour with 10 year old photos. It's his tragedy that he appears to have no other meaning in life other than to sing. At least that's what he claims, though I sense that singing is only a conduit to a luxury lifestyle and that if his 'fans' deserted him his desire to sing would evaporate overnight.

best
BB

Get out of the goove! Now Radio 1 bans Madonna, 56, for being 'irrelevant and old' for its teenage listeners

• Radio 1 has banned Madonna for being 'irrelevant and old' for its listeners
• The 56-year-old singer has been dropped from the station's playlist
• The singer's latest single has been available since December 20 last year
• It has only been played on the station ONCE since its release

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...vant-old-teenage-listeners.html#ixzz3Rp8itu00

​

 

[realitybites]

I think he is speaking through emotion, that's exactly what he's doing. He's just a man expressing his opinions, no more, no less. You can agree with them or disagree. I share his opinions on a lot of things, less so others. I love it that his rants are unpolished though, that's what rants should be. Every public person's thoughts seem to be so smoothed out these days, that's if they even choose to say anything, and most don't. Everything has to be over thought, analyzed, analyzed again, and then trotted out in some pompous drool. Well I say f*** that, speak from the hip, Good on Morrissey.

Rants are for emotionally-driven, half-witted types. If he wants to persuade he must master the art of rational and clever polemics. I think he tries but fails miserably. His irrational hyperbole contaminates his arguments, making him appear as a child playing in a sandbox rather than an intellectual to be taken seriously.

 

[evennow]

I think he is speaking through emotion, that's exactly what he's doing. He's just a man expressing his opinions, no more, no less. You can agree with them or disagree. I share his opinions on a lot of things, less so others. I love it that his rants are unpolished though, that's what rants should be. Every public person's thoughts seem to be so smoothed out these days, that's if they even choose to say anything, and most don't. Everything has to be over thought, analyzed, analyzed again, and then trotted out in some pompous drool. Well I say f*** that, speak from the hip, Good on Morrissey.

I get what you are saying, but still...there is a certain sense of "recklessness" to his writing. Kind of like the difference between shooting at a gun range vs. firing off a shotgun in public, or driving fast vs. driving drunk. He is a public figure, not one of us nameless, faceless individuals that can get by doing basically whatever we choose. His actions have consequences beyond his wishes or his control. This is what I think frustrates him the most. So he rails against these things making it all the worse.

Lastly, I think there is an important distinction between over thought and thoughtless. You appreciate his candor...I find it a little alarming. Beg to differ I guess