Morrissey's image and quote being used by BNP on Facebook

I get the sense that Morrissey genuinely respects (and is genuinely moved by) James Baldwin's work. Baldwin's importance wasn't just his skin color; he was a keen social critic who publicly dismantled the case for racism, and exposed the moral bankruptcy of such an ideology. He preached liberation from small-mindedness.

Reducing him to a "black friend" is one way of dismissing him, but doesn't address the issue of why a racist would promote and idolize someone whose life's work was to destroy racism.

I personally find it rather insulting that these posters have reduced Baldwin to "some black guy" and have totally disparaged his legacy. They don't even see the shame of their own pithy actions, all in an attempt to smack down Morrissey, whom they clearly have an inverted love-obsession with and are unable to replace their affect onto a more adaptive object.

Just remember, folks, you think Morrissey is racist and yet you have followed him around like dogs and helped pay for his "privileged white-male" lifestyle!

Or maybe he's earned everything he has achieved and was not magically handed everything because of his skin colour and sex and you are, rather, just making excuses for your own dissatisfying existences.

Victim or life's adventurer
Which of the two are you?
 
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The point is, you have failed to sway anyone here to believe your ridiculous argument, and I have demonstrated why. Nothing you or the other Anons have said has carried any weight, even your precious "subspecies" card.

When your argument falls apart you declare yourself the winner of the debate. I really hope you are a troll but I fear you are an idiot.
 
When your argument falls apart you declare yourself the winner of the debate. I really hope you are a troll but I fear you are an idiot.

Please elaborate.

The crux of the "Morrissey is an evil, racist, white male, like all white males are" argument was the subspecies comment. I have demonstrated why it appears that that comment has no bearing. I have yet to receive any evidence that might sway me otherwise. I am not declaring anything about myself relative to this debate; perhaps what I'm declaring is that the Anons have presented insufficient evidence for anyone to actually believe there is a debate at all.

The only replies I have received thus far are along the lines of "Morrissey is racist[;] just because he has a black friend doesn't mean he doesn't hate blacks" or "your (sic) a loser" or "your (sic) wrong."

Well, great, but those are your opinions. Please tell me more. Please attempt to demonstrate your claims empirically.

Right now, it appears that many of the "debaters" attempting to smack Morrissey down are in fact racist themselves.
 
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Please elaborate.

The crux of the "Morrissey is an evil, racist, white male, like all white males are" argument was the subspecies comment. I have demonstrated why it appears that that comment has no bearing. I have yet to receive any evidence that might sway me otherwise. I am not declaring anything about myself relative to this debate; perhaps what I'm declaring is that the Anons have presented insufficient evidence for anyone to actually believe there is a debate at all.

The only replies I have received thus far are along the lines of "Morrissey is racist[;] just because he has a black friend doesn't mean he doesn't hate blacks" or "your (sic) a loser" or "your (sic) wrong."

Well, great, but those are your opinions. Please tell me more. Please attempt to demonstrate your claims empirically.

Right now, it appears that many of the "debaters" attempting to smack Morrissey down are in fact racist themselves.

It's very clear why you distrust language. You're making up quotes and attributing things to me that I didn't say. Here's a big clue that I know you know that you're bullshitting. When you have to restate a person's statement to purposely twist it, you're not interested in the truth. Find those quotes in my posts. I never said Morrissey has a black friend or that he hates blacks. I doubt either of those things is true. Enjoy your last word. This conversation is just polluting the site.
 
Please elaborate.

The crux of the "Morrissey is an evil, racist, white male, like all white males are" argument was the subspecies comment. I have demonstrated why it appears that that comment has no bearing. I have yet to receive any evidence that might sway me otherwise. I am not declaring anything about myself relative to this debate; perhaps what I'm declaring is that the Anons have presented insufficient evidence for anyone to actually believe there is a debate at all.

The only replies I have received thus far are along the lines of "Morrissey is racist[;] just because he has a black friend doesn't mean he doesn't hate blacks" or "your (sic) a loser" or "your (sic) wrong."

Well, great, but those are your opinions. Please tell me more. Please attempt to demonstrate your claims empirically.

Right now, it appears that many of the "debaters" attempting to smack Morrissey down are in fact racist themselves.

Your reply...

It's very clear why you distrust language. You're making up quotes and attributing things to me that I didn't say. Here's a big clue that I know you know that you're bullshitting. When you have to restate a person's statement to purposely twist it, you're not interested in the truth. Find those quotes in my posts. I never said Morrissey has a black friend or that he hates blacks. I doubt either of those things is true. Enjoy your last word. This conversation is just polluting the site.


I believe Derek was referring to all the anonymous comments, not just yours. No, you never said he had a black friend or hates blacks, but you have, in so many (many) words called him a racist.

Anyway here is proof that you are a troll and a real bullshitter. Enjoy.

PS: Please don't flatter yourself that I may remember your trolling posts. I have a great memory and I tend to look at who says what, anonymous or otherwise.

This is not about Obama.

The fact is that a far right organization can use a thing Morrissey actually said with no modification and it fits right in with their message. You would have to be stupid not to see that Morrissey is, if not racist, clearly xenophobic. It fits in nicely with his other social phobias.

FPOdkRu.png


Rumored cover of new Morrissey song leaks.

^^^ This would have been enough to prove you do think he is a racist, but...

I realized that I gave you enough material that you would choose something irrelevant to the topic and avoid the question, and you did. Please, again, explain to me "Life is hard enough when you belong here."

It's fine to say, "He is an artist and can make racist statements in his art." It is really stupid to say, "He is an artist so his racist statements are not racist." If you can explain "in context" how the quoted line from the song "Bengali In Platforms" is not racist, I will honestly be grateful. If your argument is, Edgy Patti Smith Is Edgy, and when she "redefines" a racial slur it instantly makes all racism in any song void, then save it.

Anyway, this was an interesting thread in spite of the many attempts made to derail it. Thanks for helping me prove my point.

As I've already stated, your mind was made up from the time you started posting in this thread about Morrissey being a racist. There is nothing anyone could have said to change your point of view.

What is the issue?


Since you wrote "please," let's go back to the original quote.

Q: Do you think people are inherently racist?
Morrissey: Yes. I don't want to sound horrible or pessimistic but I don't really think, for instance, black people and white people will ever really get on or like each other. I don't really think they ever will. The French will never like the English. The English will never like the French. That tunnel will collapse.


THE INTERVIEWER ASKS "DO YOU THINK PEOPLE ARE INHERENTLY RACIST. HE REPLIES "YES."

Now maybe he meant, "except for me." So, moving ahead, "I don't really think, for instance, black people and white people will ever really get on or like each other."

Race is a fairly modern concept, only about five hundred years old. It originally was used to mean "ethnic group" or nationality, but for a little less than two hundred years it came to be used to classify humans into groups regardless of nationality or ethnic group. Contemporary anthropologists debate whether "race" is something that exists, but that's another story. For the purposes of this discussion we can all pretty much recognize what is meant by "black" and "white" although, of course there is a spectrum.
So, for the purposes of discussion if we accept as a given that there is a "black" race and a "white" race, the idea that individuals in these groups, classified by race, can never get on or like each other, is clearly a racist idea. He is saying that there are differences in billions of individuals that can be defined, literally, by the color of their skin, and that these people share such unnamed similarities and differences, that going by the color of their skin alone, it is impossible to believe that they can "like each other."

If I say that I can never like a "black" person because I am a "white" person, that's clearly a racist idea.

Then he goes into Nationalism, with "The English will never like the French." Again, speaking of groups of diverse individuals as if they all share some characteristics that will make them "never like each other." The two sentences demonstrate clearly that he has ideas that are racist and xenophobic. I'm aware this is the man who wrote"Is evil just something you are or something you do?" so maybe he can have racist ideas and not be a racist, but you asked how the quote itself is racist, and it very clearly is
If you don't understand my point, read again, "Do you think people (which I take to mean people in general, Morrissey included) are inherently (born with, not taught) racist?" and he answers not, "Sadly, yes," or "I would hope not," or "It's something we're taught but it can be overcome," or anything like that. He answers, "Yes." and then gives a couple of examples with no reasons given as to how he has come to those conclusions.



We know why he doesn't live in England. Hint:Mike Joyce. But when he's there he finds the floodgates have opened on immigration and he can't hear an English accent.
Morrissey has songs I love and says things I find racist.
I've explained my feelings on Bengali in Platforms, and rather than tell me what it actually means you just want to pretend I'm stupid. the funny thing is that I post anonymously and you're bothered enough by what I say to form some sort of idea of me. You have posted for years under the same username and never made an impression on me.

If I had highlighted that whole sentence in bold, do you not see how contradictory and absurd it sounds?
 
Your reply...




I believe Derek was referring to all the anonymous comments, not just yours. No, you never said he had a black friend or hates blacks, but you have, in so many (many) words called him a racist.

Anyway here is proof that you are a troll and a real bullshitter. Enjoy.

PS: Please don't flatter yourself that I may remember your trolling posts. I have a great memory and I tend to look at who says what, anonymous or otherwise.





^^^ This would have been enough to prove you do think he is a racist, but...





As I've already stated, your mind was made up from the time you started posting in this thread about Morrissey being a racist. There is nothing anyone could have said to change your point of view.







If I had highlighted that whole sentence in bold, do you not see how contradictory and absurd it sounds?

I said he is a racist. He said he is a racist when he said that everyone is racist. I did not say he hates blacks. "Your mind is made up" just means you fail at making an argument and you'd like to blame me. You and your friend the semantics expert. and your idiot philosopher friend, too are all very poor at making your argument, but then you do have the disadvantage of arguing something that is demonstrably untrue. We have one KS who says it doesn't matter what he is saying because it's "the voice" that really matters, another D17 who says that only the person who said the words ever has any hope of knowing what they meant, and you who can't begin to see the difference in degree between judging people by their race, and hating people because of their race.

The three of you are really a sad indicator of what sort of nonsense you have to tell yourself to believe Morrissey is not a racist. The lengths you will go to attempt to make your point only prove that your argument is faulty and lacking any substance.

Meanwhile, with all this furious copying and pasting, the link proving that Bengali in Platforms is actually about welcoming immigrants to British society goes missing...
 
I said he is a racist. He said he is a racist when he said that everyone is racist. I did not say he hates blacks. "Your mind is made up" just means you fail at making an argument and you'd like to blame me. You and your friend the semantics expert. and your idiot philosopher friend, too are all very poor at making your argument, but then you do have the disadvantage of arguing something that is demonstrably untrue. We have one KS who says it doesn't matter what he is saying because it's "the voice" that really matters, another D17 who says that only the person who said the words ever has any hope of knowing what they meant, and you who can't begin to see the difference in degree between judging people by their race, and hating people because of their race.

The three of you are really a sad indicator of what sort of nonsense you have to tell yourself to believe Morrissey is not a racist. The lengths you will go to attempt to make your point only prove that your argument is faulty and lacking any substance.

Meanwhile, with all this furious copying and pasting, the link proving that Bengali in Platforms is actually about welcoming immigrants to British society goes missing...

You accused Derek of twisting your words and making up quotes. He didn't. That was the point of my reply. And, I'm sorry, but my argument does have substance. I'm not the one who keeps contradicting myself and asking someone, anyone, to please prove me wrong in my decision only to then tell those people who did respond that they are wrong. Yes! Your mind was made up before your first post on this thread.

If you can't be bothered to go back a few pages and re-read or find my post on what I feel is the meaning behind that lyric in BIP (as you keep asking), then that proves you have no interest in seeing another POV. Oh, but you have time to respond to my last post, though, and label me pathetic because I checked a few boxes and replied to you and your ridiculous claims (within minutes.)

Well, okay. You think he's a racist. So...why do you love Morrissey's music, then? Here's an artist who, apparently, says nothing to you about your life. Must be nostalgia, right? From when you were young and stupid and didn't bother to think about what he was singing about, but now that you're oh so clever, it's okay to come here and drag his name through shit.

Wot-evah, 0bba, wot-evah.
 
T
It's very clear why you distrust language. You're making up quotes and attributing things to me that I didn't say. Here's a big clue that I know you know that you're bullshitting. When you have to restate a person's statement to purposely twist it, you're not interested in the truth. Find those quotes in my posts. I never said Morrissey has a black friend or that he hates blacks. I doubt either of those things is true. Enjoy your last word. This conversation is just polluting the site.

You seem to take everything to extremes and fail to understand what I am trying to convey. I have explained my points more thoroughly than necessary. At this point if you are still having trouble making connections, that's on you. Go back and read slowly and if you have any questions, please ask. The onus is on you to understand for yourself.
 
'sort of nonsense' just an opinion.

'attempt to make your point ' either a success or fail ... it's just an opinion. And and what you read as an 'attempt', is a point made either way. Just happens to not be yours... so it must be (to you)'wrong'.

' the link proving that Bengali in Platforms is actually about welcoming immigrants to British society goes missing...'

I never said that,who did ? Maybe that's how you interpret the song.


'We have one KS who says it doesn't matter what he is saying because it's "the voice" that really matters,'

Well,I still stand by this belief.For it's his voice that I always come back to his songs for,even if I don't agree with everything he does or says these days. I just don't think one should always take the words so literally all the time and should take meaning(as in.. the truth is in the ear of the beholder) from the voice and the sound as a whole. Also if the listener is familiar with M and what his views are,then one I feel can make a better judgement of what a song could mean. Though having said that... Everyone will have their own 'truth' as to what a song means to them... doesn't make one right or wrong. Which is why I tried in my way to explain my view of said song,etc,But just stopped... because in the end...it doesn't matter. For they/these are just 'opinions'.

Indeed, apparently words can be difficult to attach the "correct" meaning to. Anon is proving that point while arguing against it.

All Anon has presented is his opinion. That's fine, but as I keep saying, Anon, you are not coming up with the goods. Give me the scoops on why Morrissey is racist or it remains merely a libellous claim, as mentioned above. Your attempt to defame Morrissey is looking rather hollow.
 
Re: Morrisey's image and quote being used by BNP on Facebook

Morrissey has a point regarding the influx/identity loss. As a toddler I lived in the outskirts of Birmingham, UK and the only "foreigners" ran the local shop. 39 years later and my uncle, that lives in our old home still, is the only white man left in the street and possibly the district. If that isn't an erosion of British identity then what is? I'm not a racist at all but the point is that people like Morrissey say what most people are scared to, it doesn't make him racist in my opinion, he just states the blindingly obvious.
 
You accused Derek of twisting your words and making up quotes. He didn't. That was the point of my reply. And, I'm sorry, but my argument does have substance. I'm not the one who keeps contradicting myself and asking someone, anyone, to please prove me wrong in my decision only to then tell those people who did respond that they are wrong. Yes! Your mind was made up before your first post on this thread.

If you can't be bothered to go back a few pages and re-read or find my post on what I feel is the meaning behind that lyric in BIP (as you keep asking), then that proves you have no interest in seeing another POV. Oh, but you have time to respond to my last post, though, and label me pathetic because I checked a few boxes and replied to you and your ridiculous claims (within minutes.)

Well, okay. You think he's a racist. So...why do you love Morrissey's music, then? Here's an artist who, apparently, says nothing to you about your life. Must be nostalgia, right? From when you were young and stupid and didn't bother to think about what he was singing about, but now that you're oh so clever, it's okay to come here and drag his name through shit.

Wot-evah, 0bba, wot-evah.

No I can't be bothered. "Derek" puts words between quotation marks that I didn't write. That is why I said he's making up quoted. He says there is no evidence, when he stopped replying to me several pages back, and is now pretending not of that happened.
Derek has been taught a belief system and uses his intellect to defend it rather than question it. Ketamine Sun has a philosophically open-minded but tenuous grasp on concepts like truth and reality. You're simply a dolt.
 
Re: Morrisey's image and quote being used by BNP on Facebook

Morrissey has a point regarding the influx/identity loss. As a toddler I lived in the outskirts of Birmingham, UK and the only "foreigners" ran the local shop. 39 years later and my uncle, that lives in our old home still, is the only white man left in the street and possibly the district. If that isn't an erosion of British identity then what is? I'm not a racist at all but the point is that people like Morrissey say what most people are scared to, it doesn't make him racist in my opinion, he just states the blindingly obvious.

I agree with this sentiment. If you are white and express such views, however, the force of political hysteria will turn it into "you are racist" simply because the person expressing the views is white.

Situations like these don't even need to bring race into the picture; it only is brought in because of the political hysterics who make a very real loss of culture and identity in a particular locale a race issue rather than what it is, a cultural issue. In this case, the only thing that brings colour or race into the picture is the fact that England has been predominately white. Whites are not allowed to stand up for themselves as equal human beings, and so they tend not to.

Now we have "Chinatowns" and "Little Africas" everywhere, but the native population, who happen to be English, are shamed for having only the streets they live on and only their neighbours, and when these familiar things are turned inside out, an entire culture changes while the native population become disconnected and wonder where their country has gone.

Would anyone think it a good thing if predominately white English-speakers slowly took over Jamaica or a large portion of France and rendered the country an unrecognizable entity with its original culture cast aside?

Some people value history and cultural identity. Call it nostalgic, but in England and other countries, these things are disappearing, and that can be empirically demonstrated. Some people are not comfortable with this and they have a right to be uncomfortable, for it is their country, and we must remember that it is a privilege for immigrants to enter England and other welcoming nations, not a right.
 
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Re: Morrisey's image and quote being used by BNP on Facebook

I agree with this sentiment. If you are white and express such views, however, the force of political hysteria will turn it into "you are racist" simply because the person expressing the views is white.

Situations like these don't even need to bring race into the picture; it only is brought in because of the political hysterics who make a very real loss of culture and identity in a particular locale a race issue rather than what it is, a cultural issue. In this case, the only thing that brings colour or race into the picture is the fact that England has been predominately white. Whites are not allowed to stand up for themselves as equal human beings, and so they tend not to.

Now we have "Chinatowns" and "Little Africas" everywhere, but the native population, which happens to be English, are shamed for having only the streets they live on and only their neighbours, and when these familiar things are turned inside out, an entire culture changes while the native population become disconnected and wonder where their country has gone.

Would anyone think it a good thing if predominately white English-speakers slowly took over Jamaica or a large portion of France and rendered the country an unrecognizable entity with its original culture cast aside?

I wonder how they felt when the British Empire was invading their country.
aGRWKXz_700b.jpg
 
i mean, you are the ones who believes in reverse racism and that evil balck people can be racist against the poor white people, so i think you are the racist one!! bye

What is reverse racism? There is only racism.

It is always interesting when people suggest that racism is a white invention. You are hopelessly naive.

Racism (or prejudice generally, for they are interchangeable) exists among the lighter- and darker-skinned groups in India. Racism exists between the Chinese and Japanese. Racism exists between tribes in Africa. Why? Because humans prefer similar others and there is a complicated dynamic between people of in-groups and out-groups.

But of course, it is too much to expect someone of demonstrated intellectual inferiority to engage in a civil discussion.

The Rwandan genocide was, of course, the white man's fault.

Have a chew on this:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/maher-tr...aul-ryan-quote-except-michelle-obama-said-it/
 
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Re: Morrisey's image and quote being used by BNP on Facebook

I agree with this sentiment. If you are white and express such views, however, the force of political hysteria will turn it into "you are racist" simply because the person expressing the views is white.

Situations like these don't even need to bring race into the picture; it only is brought in because of the political hysterics who make a very real loss of culture and identity in a particular locale a race issue rather than what it is, a cultural issue. In this case, the only thing that brings colour or race into the picture is the fact that England has been predominately white. Whites are not allowed to stand up for themselves as equal human beings, and so they tend not to.

Now we have "Chinatowns" and "Little Africas" everywhere, but the native population, who happen to be English, are shamed for having only the streets they live on and only their neighbours, and when these familiar things are turned inside out, an entire culture changes while the native population become disconnected and wonder where their country has gone.

Would anyone think it a good thing if predominately white English-speakers slowly took over Jamaica or a large portion of France and rendered the country an unrecognizable entity with its original culture cast aside?

Some people value history and cultural identity. Call it nostalgic, but in England and other countries, these things are disappearing, and that can be empirically demonstrated. Some people are not comfortable with this and they have a right to be uncomfortable, for it is their country, and we must remember that it is a privilege for immigrants to enter England and other welcoming nations, not a right.

Yeah. How can pointing out that there are too many brown people in the country and they're bad news possibly be construed as racist? You can't even buy a pint of jellied eels nowadays without someone from the council coming along and smearing it with curry paste.
 
Re: Morrisey's image and quote being used by BNP on Facebook

Yeah. How can pointing out that there are too many brown people in the country and they're bad news possibly be construed as racist? You can't even buy a pint of jellied eels nowadays without someone from the council coming along and smearing it with curry paste.

Simple question: would you take care of your own child first, or donate to the local homeless man, even though the needs of your own child were not met?

That is precisely the balance any country must make when allowing immigration. Beyond the cultural implications I mentioned above, there are practicalities to consider. So do you have an intelligent response to all of this, or just another "ha-ha" cop out about how cultural identity and practical concerns are racist when raised by someone who is white?
 
Re: Morrisey's image and quote being used by BNP on Facebook

Gosh! It's almost as if Trollissey has turned up at Victoria Station and given a hand wave that the credulous interpret as a Nazi salute. *smirks*

BB
 
We know why he doesn't live in England. Hint:Mike Joyce. But when he's there he finds the floodgates have opened on immigration and he can't hear an English accent.
Morrissey has songs I love and says things I find racist.
I've explained my feelings on Bengali in Platforms, and rather than tell me what it actually means you just want to pretend I'm stupid. the funny thing is that I post anonymously and you're bothered enough by what I say to form some sort of idea of me. You have posted for years under the same username and never made an impression on me.

mariah-carey-i-dont-know-her.gif

You know nothing. You're a f***ing idiot. Hint: You're stupid. f*** England, f*** the accent and f*** you. No one cares about what you think or what you find racist, get over yourself. f*** what you think of Bengali In Platforms. You are stupid. No one gives a f*** about you or any idea of you. You have followed, clearly, hand in glove for "years", so she's made SOME impact, SOME impression on you. I can tell you this, I'm sure you've never made an impression on anyone ever, so...f*** OFF, as UncleSkinnyDick would say. Why don't you and Mariah Carey pull out the huge stick in your asses and shove down your throat, mmmkay? Thanks.
 
When your argument falls apart you declare yourself the winner of the debate. I really hope you are a troll but I fear you are an idiot.

I do wish to amend my views on this topic and to distance myself from the BNP which I should have done more emphatically from the start.

My views in no way endorse the BNP.
 
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