"Surely how I feel is not nothing?" by Morrissey - statement at true-to-you.net

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We used to have an Empire, you know.

And thank God you don't anymore. You seem really upset at the potential of the state "sticking its nose in your business" yet you are perfectly content with your favored state sticking its nose in everyone else's business?

For the record, this isn't directly focused at the British Empire. I am against colonialism, imperialism, and empires in general. As an American, I deeply troubled by my own country's meddling in the affairs of other nations.

That being said that remark alone shows your true colors.
 
As an American, I understand your anguish and frustration today; however, one of the biggest complaints about Americans is that we tend to presume that our news, our tragedies are the most important events in the world. In addition to the Boston bombings and Thatcher's funeral, there was a massive earthquake on the Pakistan/Iran border, but that received little attention because it happened to "those people" (not my personal sentiment, just an observation of accepted public perception) I am not in any way being insulting, I am just trying to show that it is human nature to respond to the events that affect you most directly, and that is what Morrissey did.

As for those who attacked his style of writing, please remember that this is an outpouring of emotion from a songwriter, not a scholarly journal submission, or a thesis paper, or even a newspaper article (which of course would have been written using grade school vocabulary). When Morrissey ventures into prose or essay writing, he does tend to get wordy, or, as our resident English majors would state, his every utterance seems to be replete with intricate verbiosity; however, that in no way negates his message. This was not the time to worry about sentence structure or punctuation; he is using the stream of consciousness approach to writing, which has been employed by some of the greatest literary figures.

Some say it's not his place to make this commentary; but what is more admirable, sending an unfiltered, heart-felt message or sitting silent? Silence addresses nothing, it changes nothing. I cannot comment on Thatcherism, but I do know the detrimental effects of Reagan politics that continue on long after his departure. One of the worst consequences of that era is the loss of media integrity. It is acceptible to make celebrities out of talentless, mindless, vapid, useless human beings; yet, it is no longer allowable to show the coffins of soldiers who lost their lives in an endless war that we are supposed to pretend doesn't exist. The 1980's forced censorship on the public, and unfortunately, complacency and mass apathy are the result. I admire Morrissey's passion; I pray that he takes these emotions and does what he does best, translates them into concise, yet profoundly impactful song lyrics, not venmous attacks, but thoughtful, heart-felt expressions that inspire us to look for "the glass hidden in the grass."

lynnda

I agree ;) "Stream of consciousness" is the term that came to my mind too. Even if there were run on sentences and a lack of paragraph breaks (the horror!!) it was well written and the point came through quite clearly. If this were a published writing (newspaper,etc.) the quick swipe of an editor would take care of any of those problems. This was a genuine and focused piece of writing.:thumb:
 
She stood by and allowed Bobby Sands to starve to death. Whatever your view on the rights and wrongs of Sands' protest, her stubborn refusal to engage in dialogue and negotiation resulted in massive recruitment for the IRA, which led to a surge in the Troubles and bombings in England. And what was it that brought about The Good Friday Agreement 17 years later? Oh that's right, dialogue and negotiation.

I agree with most of the sentiments you expressed regarding Thatcher, but the above comment is a little naïve. The political climate which prevailed during the 1981 starvation protest was very different to that within which (what you refer to as) the "Good Friday Agreement" was negotiated. In the early '80s, the IRA had yet to accept the majority's will for Northern Ireland to remain an integral part of the UK. No amount of "dialogue and negotiation" would have changed their position and so their campaign of murder (and self-starvation) would have continued. By 1998, however, the IRA had been forced to recognise the practical reality of the situation. Firstly, their arguments in favour of Northern Ireland's secession from the Union were unpersuasive and, secondly, Unionists would not be bombed into a (nominally) united Ireland. The point is this: in 1998, the IRA was sufficiently mature to negotiate, to listen to others, and ultimately to accept defeat; in 1981, it wasn't.
 
Thus speaks the self-made millionaire who has spent his entire career looking out for himself and financially screwing everyone else, whilst maintaining that he is unable to recognise this thing called 'society' from which he feels wholly alienated, and that people are generally overrated. Morrissey embodies Thatcherism: he is a product of his era. He only decries Thatcherism because he still thinks it serves his commercial interests to do so - how Thatcherist is that? He may affect to be a socialist, but everything about him declares him to be a dyed in the wool Conservative - not least his views on immigration.

You, sir (or madam), have hit the nail on the head. Commendations.
 
The Boston bombings were appalling, but I'll mention this as food for thought rather than criticism.

We are very conscious here in the UK of the sheer horror of what happened after decades of similar incidents both in Ulster and on the mainland, such as this one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks

and this one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_pub_bombings

and this one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

These atrocities were perpetrated by the IRA, which was bankrolled in part by contributions to NORAID and a hotbed of contributors to NORAID were the pseudo-Oirish people of... ummm... Boston, Massachusetts.

Morrissey would rather like those days to return if his pronouncements during the Queen's visit to Ireland are true. He's an imbecile.

And it took 9/11 to put a stop to the fund-raising and overt support from Irish Americans for a terrorist war. I was formed in the crucible of November 21 1974, but no one cares that the worst terrorist atrocity of mainland British history has never been solved, no one brought to justice, but the Birmingham Six were framed and imprisoned for decades before the whole thing collapsed.

http://justice4the21.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/psni-gain-access-to-boston-tapes.html

The same now happens about Hillsboro, Orgreave, Belgrano Savile and on and on. Thatcher was a political terrorist. The Good Friday Agreement is based on buried corpses being 'forgiven and forgotten'. With the 'flegs' unfurling in Ulster, we see that peace based on war is often tenuous.

After 9/11, Britain and America finally signed an extradition treaty to bring states such as California under control, so that terrorists could not hide out there. Not just political terrorists but sexual terrorists such as paedophile priests. Sometimes the same suspect was both a paedophile and a procurer of funds for terrorist atrocities. And, of course, also a 'priest'.

Some people don't have time for making pop music, but it's good when pop music moves beyond trivial nonsense and addresses world issues with some subtance. I hope Morrissey translates his free-form jazz extemporisation statement into brilliant music and words. It's sorely needed. The moaning about formatting and amateur web sites is beyond pathetic. I'm the James Joyce of Economics. I format when I can be bothered, but don't give a damn. Joyce wouldn't if he were here. Why should Morrissey? He's not chained to Wilde, and neither am I. Let's move on. anyone can reformat his words (or mine) if they want. I have Secretaries and scantily clad interns to do that stuff. I just dictate from the chaise eating grapes. MIDNITE is on a Joycean bender and why not? I guess a career as a Grammar Nazi on an obscure website is some consolation for not having anything to say. Or a blog on this site.
 
He said he was throwing his arms around Paris, not paragraphs...

I'll get me sweatshirt.
 
Thus speaks the self-made millionaire who has spent his entire career looking out for himself and financially screwing everyone else, whilst maintaining that he is unable to recognise this thing called 'society' from which he feels wholly alienated, and that people are generally overrated. Morrissey embodies Thatcherism: he is a product of his era. He only decries Thatcherism because he still thinks it serves his commercial interests to do so - how Thatcherist is that? He may affect to be a socialist, but everything about him declares him to be a dyed in the wool Conservative - not least his views on immigration.

This is a telling observation and one that blights Morrissey's reputation. Like the mainstream press with regard to mainstream parties, he scrupulously avoids any interviewer who might bring all this to the table so he could defend himself. His banal songs about disputes with ex-employees, band members and tax, immigration and benefit Jobsworth officials are sometimes amusing "smelly uniform" jokes, but about as cutting edge as someone writing songs about a dysfunctional washing machine and how they had to spend months chasing up the insurance guarantee. Solipsism and narcissism, but in that Morrissey is entirely conventional product and mirror of his society. If he's avoided UK tax to fund groups fighting peacefully and legitimately for animal rights, a United Ireland and English Republicanism, then good luck to him. If he's spent all his dosh gained from being based somewhere with less tax on candles, designer shirts and 5 star hotel digs, then that's his choice and none of our business, like his sexuality. But he can't avoid the questions forever. Elton John went through his candles, flowers and designer bling phase before he came out, straightened (sic) up and got sober. I know Moz has no such issues, but it would be cool if he was a bit more forthcoming about the basis of his anger towards the UK, and it's legitimacy. the fearless press will no doubt probe him next time he's too fey to use his own salt grindr...

The NME 'racism' furore was the final straw, given that he did not get a retraction, did not allow the tape that allegedly exonerates him to be broadcast, and, having made a huge song and dance of it, exhausted all goodwill in support of him, only to agree to the usual gangster silence of English Tort: the final refuges of the wealth scoundrels in the House of Common Frauds. Surely he can see that now makes him one of them in may regards, not one of us, who cannot afford to 'protect our reputation' at £500 per hour for a brief, with no Legal Aid. But let's keep this in perspective. Stalin was a careerist 'socialist', as is Kim Jong Eun. That's why Psy is easily the most important pop culture figure on the planet. K-Pop dancing in the face of nuclear state terrorist threats. a total defiance of war and disorder. and consumerism. Yet people think 'Gangnam' and 'Gentleman' are 'superficial'? Easily the most profound musical and lyrical statements around. It's their Riverdance moment, but far more important. I can't wait to get to Seoul. Moz was there, but probably didn't 'get' K-Pop's beserk punk defiance, because, y'know, it uses drum machines and sexy dancers, so it must be rubbish. People used to say that to me in the 70s when I had both Abba and Zeppelin albums alongside Bowie and Sabbath. Same pseuds infest this place, encouraged by Moz's autistic cultural choices, which come from 14 year old playground insecurity. He'd have lasted 5 minutes at Birmingham Oratory. Good job he went to a crap school, not a posh grammar like wot we did, innit. [product may contain traces of irony]

Moz turned a page with this statement. If he now reverts to making puns on the manes of celebrity couples and chefs, then he's back in the garbage bin. But he might have had a genuine catharsis as he looked out at events from his luxury hotel suite yesterday. I hope so. He really did have a blinder of an opening blast of art as a young man, often transcending the influences he'd so stealthily cherry-picked like a blackbird. Some of those influences are well known as he publishes them as propaganda (Dolls, etc). Some are not known, but obvious to those in the know who remember a shy lad from Manchester sniffing around the in-crowd at the salon. He did great work in his youth, it would be wonderful if he is now inspired by his visceral hatred of Thatcher to return to relevance. Many were traumatised as youth by the Thatcher years, including me. There was no internet, only samizdat publications like the NME, which Moz expertly gamed for his career progression. I don't think any amount of wealth and fame necessarily heals trauma wounds, whether from child sexual, pedagogic or political abuse. If it did, we wouldn't have dead lottery winners found in bed coked to oblivion. The same applies to the whole post-war pop and rock hedonism and anhedonia tropes. This was all done and dusted by Hollywood Babylon 30s: pleasure and wealth do not make you happy by themselves, nor does fame. Compensation Is Not A Cure. It doesn't matter if you win the lottery of gambling, boxing, pop star or business: you still have to face up to the horrors of youth in the ghetto, council estate or suburban torpor. In Every Dream Home A Heartache: Barbarism Begins At Home. A Rush and a Push..the personal is the political, no exceptions. If you drive an ice-cream van or spend your days in the torpor and boredom of a 5 star hotel or on disability benefits in 'Mom's Basement': the work is the same. Grow up, grow a pair, be a man. Or a woman. Become the blueprint your God, Fate or Destiny intended. Move from victim script to survivor, accepting many are innocent casualties.

Bowie seems to have realised that most of his life has been wasted chasing phantoms of wealth and fame. He took a decade off to reflect. But I told him all this in 1973. He was very, very interested in my ideas, but had to do the drugs and shopping thing. And the fame thing. Like Moz and Elton did (though Moz missed the drug ting other than occassional 'Interesting Drug' excursions. what an amazing song!)

We're all on a 'journey' despite Oprah ruining that word. and Tom Cruise. This site is important. I wish the Mods would stop playing games with the 'authenticity of anonymity'. There was no 'sock puppet' from Paul Brennan, it was someone in his BrummieBoy rehearsal crew/team trying to help him along, but causing him gip. But he's a forgiving type and his record is very, very important. I'll review his work shortly.

enough! 5:41 am, up since 4:00am. Like Thatcher! Except my 'will to power' is a war on disorderly memes, not on innocent Argentine conscripts. If anyone can show me where she publicly remonstrated with Kelvin Mackenzie over 'Gotcha!' or Hillsboro, then I'll shut up. Until then: Burn In Hell Maggie. We burned another effigy of you at dawn and scattered your ashes in the nearby Severn river to float down to rest upon the bones of Richey Manic, another victim of your tyranny, who was so scared that the concentrations camps were returning that he jumped, despite my pleas. Rest in Peace, Richey. Burn in Hell, Maggie. Don't go back to sleep, Morrissey! And throw out a rockabilly punk 1 day session of 'Kill Uncle-Redux:Director's Cut', I've changed my mind again, there's some worth there beyond another pointless consumer scam Loudness Wars remaster.

Make it so!

Come out fighting Moz. If you've f***ed up, fess up and move on like the rest of us have to do.
 
Why do you care that you are classed as traditional working class or anything else? Why does it matter what artificial grouping a few professors at Manchester University and the LSE decide you fit into? You are you and it seems by your talent and assiduity you have prevailed. That's the idea isn't it? Do you really want the state poking its nose into your business? I can't think of anything worse.

I agree that self-obsession is now a national disease but this narcissism is apparent at all levels of society. It is as much a problem in the estates of the inner cities as it is on the Estates of the landed gentry. It is a human failing which seems to me to be being fuelled not by some woman who left office a generation ago, but by the media's continual lauding of the distinctly average as being somehow very special, via news that is now infotainment and cheap reality shows.

Talking of which, today I was sent a link from the toe-curling Britain's Got Talent this past weekend in which a girl of ten, with a decent voice, I concede, belted out some song or other telling the nation who precisely had f***ed her until the early hours of the morning, and that he had "one night only" in which to have his wicked way with her. This post-Savile. I'm far from a prude, and I don't expect her to sing "Animal crackers in my soup", but come on.

Thatcher is the great demon. I get it. But it seems to me that in many cases this has been handed down from father to son like a folk memory. Just as tales of Grendel or the Baba Yaga were told to get unruly children to behave. It's the easiest thing in the world to sit on your arse and blame everything that has ever gone wrong in your life on someone else. In fact it is becoming a national pastime. Morrissey is actually a very fine example of this new Britain. Perhaps the finest. None of his woes are ever his fault.

We used to have an Empire, you know.

Johnny, good point on dodgy song choice on BGT! Very Shirley Temple -Nabokov but without the humour, literary importance.

Maggies said 'there is no such thing as society' and 'economics is the method, the goal is to change the heart and soul' . she was far more of a social engineering Gramscian cultural Marxist than anyone on the 'left', until Blair, though he turned out to be even more of a right wing warmonger than her once he's trashed the brand of the Saxon-Celtic-Scani-Tyne's NHS and Labour Party. He destroyed The Tribal Mind, now I have to undo all the damage done by Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and their Neoliberal clown parties.

Class is STILL the defining feature of a child's life in Britain, paricularly by accent-ism. ow yow speak is as defining as who yu knows, innit? I'm all for capitalism and entrepreneurialism as well as tribal solidarity on top of family loyalty. There is ver much such a thing as 'society' and we see, in Boston, what happens when pernicious memes that suggest otherwise are put into the meme-pool, gene-pool. It's like when religion collapses becuz of paedos: most ubermensches like me has a Stausserian view of it all, that the untermensch needed shepheards to giude the Fox Flock towards obedience and compliance, or Sky TV here. But when those running that puppet show are shagging kids, robbing banks and taxes, nicking expenses and hating on the poor, lame, sick, lazy and insane: they reveal themselves not as the benevolent dictatorship of elite but as reverse class-warriors. Chicago Monetarist Neocon (con being the word) Neoliberal Frauds with their groupie fluffer icon Thatcher on her knees fellating Friedman, etc.

http://www.democraticunderground.co...mesg&forum=214&topic_id=106078&mesg_id=106081

Even Bill O'Reilly has had a Damascene conversion to realise that you only stop paedos by gay-straight alliances and thwarting homophobia in the playground,. Nice one Billo, now figure out the next bit!

Communism as a way forward collapsed in 1989 with the Berlin Wall, Capitalism collapsed with Lehman's in 2008. Dimitry Orlov is right. No-one knows what is coming next hence the frantic retreat to historical certainties and simplistic nostrums. You're smart, so I'm sure at some level you get this when not intoxicated by your gadgets and consumer baubles. This site is for laughs, for R&R. For me and you, debunking this place is like spearing fish in a barrel. If you comment elsewhere, please let me know by private message. You write very well, one of the few I've encountered here who I'd talk to elsewhere.

Like Shakespeare and Ozzy Osbourne, I speak with a broad Mercian Brummie accent, but it's all an act. Most people dismiss me, as they dismissed Shakespeare. but I can also speak R.P Queen's English so perfectly I was offered a job on Radio 4. i turned it down because I didn't want to be a public figure at that stage. It always amazes me that people are so superficial (Oscar appearances, etc) that they sneer at me, whether Home Counties or D4 West Brits in the IFSC when I'm in Dublin. When I then switch to a perfect Irish brogue or impersonate Prince Charles, they are both angry and amazed, then try and be my friend. No way! Hating on folk for the way they speak becuz of der puer edumaction is just as bad as anything else. and, yes, I include racism, becuase nowadays you can change your skin colour as well as your accent. MJ was right: I'm not going to spend my life being a colour. Or an accent. Or a class war stereotype: like Thatcher. Moz tried the "could have gone to Oxford-couldn't be arsed" trope I'd floated in Brum with a hi-falutin accent and a tweed jacket from a pedagogue lover, but he got lost in images rather than moved on. when he did it was to a ridiculous boxer bad-boy fixation, I boxed as a lad in Small Heath, so understand why shy boys like Moz fixate on ubermensch boxing Irish dancing singing footie Damo/Dermot/Joey/Kray thug life types, but he needs to move on. We all need to move on. It's like camp guys in gay bars, that was outre in 1969, before Stonewall, now it's just conformist. Why hasn't Moz done the Joe Meek references yet? He needs that mad sound. Boz, get on to it, man! The sound of Holloway and Joe Orton in the 60s is just as rad as Sun or any other obscurantist rockabilly, though that's all good, as you heard from Hep DJ soundz at the irish centre. yeah, that was me/us/them. or part of it.

any road, there ain't arf bin some mad bints on ere lately! etc

Brummie accent is perceived as 'worse than silence':
Voices of Yorkshire is are regarded as the smartest

http://bbs.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...ccent-is-perceived-as-worse-than-silence.html
"Shakespeare is...me. Tolkien..I'll be! with Keats and Yeats on one side, the wild lover Wilde in bed beside. Merican and Free. Celtic Blood, Saxon Heart.
Warhol 2.0: The Pope of Pop-Art. Andy Dufresne at Birmingham Oratory. Manchester? London?
You may very well think that: I couldn't possibly comment!"


LOL! 180!, no BULLSEYE!

regards

TheBrummieBoyArtPopCollectiveTribalMind
 
You write "the public" as if this song was downloaded by half the population. It sold 35,000 copies in this nation of over sixty million. To put it into some context West Ham and Man U played in front of 34,600 tonight, and we wouldn't want that lot dictating the future direction of the country, would we?

Personally I think the Beeb should have played it in full, if only to placate the Tarquins and Portias of the Socialist Workers' Party, those fervent enemies of capitalism, armed only with their Marxist tracts, Daddy's Amex card and an Apple ID.

A luta continua!

Like gay marriage, the numbers who wish to express their life through a choice, whether of pop song or sexuality, is irrelvant. this is Britain, Magna Carta, Habeus Corpus, etc. The rights of the smallest, weakest groups are, paradoxically, the most important. Real capitalists and entrepreneurial idealists would have celebrated Ding Dong! as the market in goods, services and ideas in action. Not tried to censor it. It's the soi-disant libertarian right who have reached for censorship, not the Gramscian left, who cannot know be stopped. That's what my warhol 2.0 project was all along.

We saw this crypto nazi approach from Reagan and Thatcher over HIV-Aids. Instead of realising that most of her cabinet were down low cocksucking shirt-lifting public school boy 'phagz' she refused to accept that gays muched on cock, like Queen Victoria who wouldn't legislate lesbians because she couldn't believe there were Scissor Sisters in Victorian London as well as 10,000 child prostitutes to service uptight Methodist minister types.

I used to 'work' at County Hall on the banks of the Thames when Livingstone was in charge. We didn't get on, but that's another story. I used to spend my lunchtimes observing the carry on in Lambeth's Archbishop Park (apt name!) as the wee young MPs strode over Westminster Bridge each lunctime hoping I'd let them have a nosh. Sometimes i did cuz they were attractive suited and booted bitches hiding beneath their raincoats, but often I had to lean back and think of England as some repulsive politician tried to deep throat me, knowing that that's what us Catholic 'spook' Guy Fawkes types have to do if we're going to return to our 'little black book' later in life to call in favours from terrified little twinks now old and in power, who can't believe that some gormless Brummie George Clooney-Wayne Rooney-Andy...Dufresne prison bitch actor type has amassed an arsenal of Your Arse-nal politicians to blackmail for the lulz. I could retire today if I wanted to sell out. but i don't. I want to blow up the Houses of Parliament. And the Vatican. And, well, the whole world really. That's metaphorically, of course, for all those reading this at MI5/6, GCHQ, Qinetic and Ordus Nuovo -Dail reading this. You could always try and bribe DavidT to take me down or erase it all. Don't bother! I've got copies of it all from the year zero start. And I'm not just on Facebook, but a 'sleeper' ID on Zurker, the new Free Speech boy on the block. You'll never find me, and even if you do, I'm visible from teh moon now (wink) and all my WMD research is in the hands of the biggest, most ruthless private investigative journalists in the world. and no, that aint' the inept BBC Pravda. Or ITV or C4. It's 'someone else'. Can you guess who? LOLOLOLOLOL!
 
conspiracy theory? you are :crazy:

1. 9/11 - read books, read, and most importantly READ books - to what? building detonations, etc. and actually more important than that, use COMMON SENSE :straightface: but if you believe everything that is said to you from FAUX NEWS, BNN, BSNBC - there's no hope for you.:mock:

2. OKC - refer to 1.


..I bet you BELIEVE you're not a bona fide Jack:censored: ....oh but you are one! You are just like the bootleg trader Angel Everett, who flat out refused to trade out the soundboard (via in-house VHS source) of the Morrissey Greek Theatre (LA) 19997 show, unless he got his just do, meaning $$$ - and what happened to that debacle? it got leaked anyway, probably from him because no one wanted to give that PUTO any money for something like that, reminds me also of a DEPECHE MODE trader "SLICKMODE" - Wait a tick, WOW, you really are in "great" company there VIVA - :rolleyes:
OK Mexicanpoet, forgive me for using the term 'conspiracy theory'. So you are saying the 'truth' behind 9/11 is common sense? And that common sense belies what most people believe? That is what the main stream media has told us?
No, I have not read books about 9/11 or building dentonations, I read newspapers and watched the news.
Are you saying that was all wrong?
What else have we all got wrong?
Please tell.
Christ we're so lucky you posted here.
 
Agree with Morrissey 100%, the only other truthful report/comments on Thatcher I have read was in this weeks edition of Irish Echo in New York. British press spoon feed the public on a daily basis!
 
And thank God you don't anymore. You seem really upset at the potential of the state "sticking its nose in your business" yet you are perfectly content with your favored state sticking its nose in everyone else's business?

For the record, this isn't directly focused at the British Empire. I am against colonialism, imperialism, and empires in general. As an American, I deeply troubled by my own country's meddling in the affairs of other nations.

That being said that remark alone shows your true colors.

Ah, I see what you've done there. You've used the word state in two contexts to make a point which might pass muster if you were seventeen, although you are probably quite a bit older.

I shall, however walk you through my throw away line about the Empire as it has caused you such confusion.

This used to be a strong nation. A can do nation, and that spirit, for good or bad, dominated swathes of the world. A nation which gave the world the Industrial Revolution. Yes, it meant Hobbiton was paved to make way for Mordor, but that's progress. Sat here drinking my tea and looking out the window to be greeted by beautiful bright sunshine, Mordor looks pretty damn good this morning.

That spirit of adventure has gone, crushed under half a century of liberal consensus, and that is where the fault line we are really discussing here lies. The feminisation of our boys, the increasing number of people who now have to wait three days for the council to come around and wipe their backsides for them after they've been to the lavatory. If the Pilgrims had had the prevailing attitude that is gaining greater and greater ground here they'd still be sitting in Plymouth. Tony Soprano put it well. "Whatever happened to Gary Cooper?"

Wandering along the South Bank of the Thames near Borough Market a couple of days ago I once more passed the replica of Sir Francis Drake's Golden Hinde, the galleon in which he circumnavigated the globe. I've never walked past it without thinking the same thing. "You went around the world in that tub? f*** that."

Of course you are against colonialism, imperialism, and empires in general. So am I. The world has moved on, but the gumption that we needed to have to tour the world is as valuable today as it was then. I'm sure you tell people your beliefs if they ask you or not, and I imagine your friends, most of whom probably share that opinion and compete in a circlejerk to show their right-on credentials, think you are marvellous, but let me ask you a question. When the USSR and China moved to install puppet governments to extend their sphere of influence in Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan and the USA moved to prevent that, with whom did you sympathise?

Was Sino-Soviet imperialism a good thing or bad? The people of what was once the Warsaw Pact nations seem to think otherwise. The people of Tibet don't appear to be very fond of Chinese colonialism. Post-war geo-politics has been kind to the Kremlin and Beijing. Washington is always the villain, and why not? After all without US intervention the good people of Seoul could now be enjoying the personality cult of the Kim dynasty instead of 100Meg broadband speeds.

Was Argentine colonialism on the Falklands a good thing or bad? Was defeating a fascist junta, which "disappeared" its opponents by the thousands a good thing? Was that defeat, leading directly to the collapse of the military regime and the return of democracy in Argentina, a good thing? These questions illustrate the kernel of my argument. The world isn't a black and white place, and that's why Thatcher cannot be written off as all bad or all good. What can be said of her is that she won three elections in a row. The people gave her the mandate to do what she did. The fact many people didn't like it is a pity, but I suggest the people to ask are those who at that time made Labour unelectable.

I'm going to go against a prevailing wisdom again. Nelson Mandela. The only living saint. A great man? Yes. Indisputably. Now, what would we think of Mandela if the bomb he helped plant in that Post Office half a century ago, killing one man, had instead been set off at the Boston Marathon two days ago? Still a great man?

Richard Nixon reputedly asked Chou En Lai, the then Chinese Prime Minister what he thought were the impacts of the French Revolution? "It's too early to tell." came the reply. And that's the point. We simply don't know how history will pan out. It's entirely possible that in a century Obama will be regarded as a failure, and Dubya a success. Future generations might long for the day their President diverted himself with the occasional blowjob. I remember the excitement of May 1997 when Blair was elected and we threw out the Tories. It was a wonderful day. That was before Blair turned into a Greek tragedy. In half a century Iraq might be the pearl of the middle east once more. He might be "an hero".

This is now a feeble nation. A society dragged down by those who are capable of doing things but care not to because the state provides. A nation of people who have an increasing population who have been raised not to explore the outer edges of their abilities, whatever they may be, but to be vassals to the state. Diving for dear life, when they could be diving for pearls.

Thatcher was not like that. She reinstated Britain's place in the world, and that is the core issue here. That is the fault line of this entire thread. In that time only Thatcher stood against the liberal left consensus, and more infuriatingly still for her opponents, she won. Was she right? Was she wrong? Chou En Lai knew the answer.

TL;DR "The lone and level sands stretch far away."
 
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Agree with Morrissey 100%, the only other truthful report/comments on Thatcher I have read was in this weeks edition of Irish Echo in New York. British press spoon feed the public on a daily basis!

The Irish Echo spoonfeeds you too. Don't think it doesn't. It's just that you like the taste.
 
Ah, I see what you've done there. You've used the word state in two contexts to make a point which might pass muster if you were seventeen, although you are probably quite a bit older.

I shall, however walk you through my throw away line about the Empire as it has caused you such confusion.

This used to be a strong nation. A can do nation, and that spirit, for good or bad, dominated swathes of the world. A nation which gave the world the Industrial Revolution. Yes, it meant Hobbiton was paved to make way for Mordor, but that's progress. Sat here drinking my tea and looking out the window to be greeted by beautiful bright sunshine, Mordor looks pretty damn good this morning.

That spirit of adventure has gone, crushed under half a century of liberal consensus, and that is where the fault line we are really discussing here lies. The feminisation of our boys, the increasing number of people who now have to wait three days for the council to come around and wipe their backsides for them after they've been to the lavatory. If the Pilgrims had had the prevailing attitude that is gaining greater and greater ground here they'd still be sitting in Plymouth. Tony Soprano put it well. "Whatever happened to Gary Cooper?"

Wandering along the South Bank of the Thames near Borough Market a couple of days ago I once more passed the replica of Sir Francis Drake's Golden Hinde, the galleon in which he circumnavigated the globe. I've never walked past it without thinking the same thing. "You went around the world in that tub? f*** that."

Of course you are against colonialism, imperialism, and empires in general. So am I. The world has moved on, but the gumption that we needed to have to tour the world is as valuable today as it was then. I'm sure you tell people your beliefs if they ask you or not, and I imagine your friends, most of whom probably share that opinion and compete in a circlejerk to show their right-on credentials, think you are marvellous, but let me ask you a question. When the USSR and China moved to install puppet governments to extend their sphere of influence in Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan and the USA moved to prevent that, with whom did you sympathise?

Was Sino-Soviet imperialism a good thing or bad? The people of what was once the Warsaw Pact nations seem to think otherwise. The people of Tibet don't appear to be very fond of Chinese colonialism. Post-war geo-politics has been kind to the Kremlin and Beijing. Washington is always the villain, and why not? After all without US intervention the good people of Seoul could now be enjoying the personality cult of the Kim dynasty instead of 100Meg broadband speeds.

Was Argentine colonialism on the Falklands a good thing or bad? Was defeating a fascist junta, which "disappeared" its opponents by the thousands a good thing? Was that defeat, leading directly to the collapse of the military regime and the return of democracy in Argentina, a good thing? These questions illustrate the kernel of my argument. The world isn't a black and white place, and that's why Thatcher cannot be written off as all bad or all good. What can be said of her is that she won three elections in a row. The people gave her the mandate to do what she did. The fact many people didn't like it is a pity, but I suggest the people to ask are those who at that time made Labour unelectable.

I'm going to go against a prevailing wisdom again. Nelson Mandela. The only living saint. A great man? Yes. Indisputably. Now, what would we think of Mandela if the bomb he helped plant in that Post Office half a century ago, killing one man, had instead been set off at the Boston Marathon two days ago? Still a great man?

Richard Nixon reputedly asked Chou En Lai, the then Chinese Prime Minister what he thought were the impacts of the French Revolution? "It's too early to tell." came the reply. And that's the point. We simply don't know how history will pan out. It's entirely possible that in a century Obama will be regarded as a failure, and Dubya a success. Future generations might long for the day their President diverted himself with the occasional blowjob. I remember the excitement of May 1997 when Blair was elected and we threw out the Tories. It was a wonderful day. That was before Blair turned into a Greek tragedy. In half a century Iraq might be the pearl of the middle east once more. He might be "an hero".

This is now a feeble nation. A society dragged down by those who are capable of doing things but care not to because the state provides. A nation of people who have an increasing population who have been raised not to explore the outer edges of their abilities, whatever they may be, but to be vassals to the state. Diving for dear life, when they could be diving for pearls.

Thatcher was not like that. She reinstated Britain's place in the world, and that is the core issue here. That is the fault line of this entire thread. In that time only Thatcher stood against the liberal left consensus, and more infuriatingly still for her opponents, she won. Was she right? Was she wrong? Chou En Lai knew the answer.

TL;DR "The lone and level sands stretch far away."

Pearls before swine, you're wasting your time here, mate. Some grit in your oyster, but all valid views. You should have formed an indie band, been radical until you got on a major then come out with this stuff to blow them away...LOL!

regards
BrummieBoy

from The Dakota Building. Mordor.
[typed from phone call and sent from The Shire HQ by 'Sharon-The Secretary. Mods and I.P's -not as smart as they think they are!]

http://www.dv247.com/birmingham

[not true! he's making me up. i don't exist. it's all him, there is no one else. he's just being silly. best. Sharon]
 
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stephen fry retweeted this in support of moz - if its good enough for him........


especially liked the following

'Thatcher's funeral will be paid for by the public - who have not been asked if they object to paying, yet the public will be barred from attending. In their place, the cast are symbols of withering - as old as their prejudices, adroit at hiding Thatcher's disasters'
 
stephen fry retweeted this in support of moz - if its good enough for him........


especially liked the following

'Thatcher's funeral will be paid for by the public - who have not been asked if they object to paying, yet the public will be barred from attending. In their place, the cast are symbols of withering - as old as their prejudices, adroit at hiding Thatcher's disasters'

And I love Stephen Fry even more!
 
That's very nice indeed. While it may not be entirely popular at the moment due to some sort of Olympian collective amnesia, what Morrissey says about Thatcher is absolutely on the money. Much of the criticism his statement has attracted - and the insidious rehabilitation of Thatcher these people are endorsing - smacks of the worst kind of reactionary nonsense; her apologists make Attila the Hun look liberal.
 
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