Why Morrissey is right on immigration!

[sparacus]

i don't think you have to worry about 38 million poles coming to live in the uk.

I'd imagine that most want to. Why stay in Poland when you can come here?

 

[2-J]

this is the same argument they used to get women to stay home and not work. "women are taking jobs away from men." first it was based on sex, now race. it may be a huge generalisation but it is also the general picture. university qualified poles are coming here to do jobs which they are over qualified for. they also do not set the rate at which they are paid. if employers are illegally paying below standard rates should you blame the victim?

Reasoning based on nationality and reasoning based on sex within a nationality is not the same. Example: it would be wrong to deny women who are UK nationals access to our national health system because they were women. But nobody thinks it is wrong that we deny access to our healthcare system to say people from Zimbabwe, because they are from Zimbabwe. Imagine if we didn't discriminate on the basis of nationality like this. The whole country would crumble into anarchy pretty quickly (any nation that didn't discriminate like this, would, in fact). So there are many good arguments as to why it's not wrong in this way to discriminate based on nationality (there is no analogy with discrimination against women, for example).

Also it's generally felt that the people of a nation should be allowed to collectively decide on the policies and laws they see fit, as a nation. Now, EU treaty aside, there is no reason PER SE why we should allow someone from another nation to come and work here just because they are qualified. This applies just as much to a Pole as to an Indian. Whether to allow that is a decision we take as a society and it's generally not felt wrong to be protectionist to a degree about this also; why should someone from the UK who is qualified not get a job just because someone from another country also has that qualification and will accept lower wages? Of course, through the EU treaty we now have an obligation to allow Polish workers into this country. But that is the point at issue. The EU was never meant to be a wholly socialist affair - it wasn't meant to entail a complete abandonment of our own country's self interest. To an extent it was intended as a mutually beneficial relationship, whilst acknowledging that, in practice, some countries may get slightly more out of it than others. Not that some countries, or rather the citizens of some countries, should benefit hugely more than others at the expense of the citizens of other countries.

simple solution, the uk should leave the eu and not allow any european to enter for work without being properly vetted for specific positions. don't blame one nation in a whole range of countries this rule applies to.

There are of course many advantages to the UK being in the EU. Only a fool would deny that and I have no time for Eurosceptics. However to say the only alternatives here are 'in' or 'out' - that's to oversimplify the situation. Another alternative would have been to hold off on the admittance on some of these Eastern European countries and yes, in particular Poland. As I previously stated, with countries with more developed economies, the issue is not so acute - immigration tends to balance out or at least is not so significant.

so a rich migrant is a welcomed migrant?

Only in the sense that I'm arguing that only countries with developed economies should be allowed to join the EU. And for the reasons above, I shan't repeat them.

 

[Chartres]

I'd imagine that most want to. Why stay in Poland when you can come here?

Cause UK is heaven for everyone and is a hell Poland were everyone does like count Ugolino.

 

[2-J]

But there hasn't been a mass flood of immigrants and there's nothing that suggest it should.

I can tell you don't live in the UK. There must have been other factors in the Sweden-Poland situation, is all I can say.

Why isn't skill entirely relevant? Many who are young and well educated only work abroad for a short period of let's say ten years and then they return home. There has been some competition for the domestic Universities plus their home country, which long has been isolated, has got experience from how other countries work.

Qualifications aren't relevant for two reasons. Firstly, with Poland being in the EU, it isn't only qualified people who can move around countries, it's the unqualified too, such as labourers, or semi-qualified (tradesmen). Lowering wages where they don't actually 'take' the jobs of UK nationals. Secondly, back to the self-interest argument I was detailing my reply to Jeane. In an ideal world there should be roughly as many openings in Poland for qualified people (per capita) as in the UK. This would represent then a 'fair deal' for the UK and existing members of the EU before Poland joined (our workers being allowed to take as many positions over there as others could come here to get). Of course, we don't live in an ideal world and certain disparities can be expected between nations (as already existed before the eastern european nations joined) but it's when the situation is so hopelessly unbalanced that the problem becomes acute.

 

[Mars_Rover]

I think we should do what i think they do in america and australia, you have to actually have some purpose be able to do a job.

Dunno about Australia, but we don't do that in the U.S. - I wish we did, it makes sense. I thought that the U.K. has laws forbidding an employer to hire a foreigner unless they can prove that a British citizen can't/won't do that job.

A few years ago I had a young guy working for me who had just emigrated from England, for much the same reasons Morrissey (allegedly) stated in NME. He wasn't prejudiced or hateful in the least, he was just trying to get himself established with a career and a home, but the British government favored new arrivals with all sorts of breaks that he couldn't get.

The irony was that he moved to Miami, which has very very intense immigration! As an English-speaker, I'm in the minority. To voice any kind of objection to uncontrolled immigration is to be labeled a racist.

P.S. Sparacus, who is that in your avatar photo -- he scares me!

 

[Chartres]

I can tell you don't live in the UK. There must have been other factors in the Sweden-Poland situation, is all I can say..

Probably the fact that we always have had Polish immigration for a long time, it isn't anything new here. It has always been quite social acceptable and therefor it hasn't been anything that has been hidden. Not that we don't have people who think that it's an issue, it's getting bigger by every election.

Then of course we have the fact that the UK and London with it's language and position almost is the capital of EU, the Empire hasn't fallen.

Qualifications aren't relevant for two reasons. Firstly, with Poland being in the EU, it isn't only qualified people who can move around countries, it's the unqualified too, such as labourers, or semi-qualified (tradesmen). Lowering wages where they don't actually 'take' the jobs of UK nationals. Secondly, back to the self-interest argument I was detailing my reply to Jeane. In an ideal world there should be roughly as many openings in Poland for qualified people (per capita) as in the UK. This would represent then a 'fair deal' for the UK and existing members of the EU before Poland joined (our workers being allowed to take as many positions over there as others could come here to get). Of course, we don't live in an ideal world and certain disparities can be expected between nations (as already existed before the eastern european nations joined) but it's when the situation is so hopelessly unbalanced that the problem becomes acute.

I certainly agree with you that lowering wages is a problem but it hasn't been as large as many predicted. However it should not be tolerated. It should be the skill and not the prices that counts.

 

[Augustus]

You would have to be a cretin of monumental proportions to truly believe "socialism" is the answer to the world's ills, especially as so many nations have only recently emerged blinking and impoverished from beneath its yoke. Socialism is what Chavez and Morales are attempting in Venezuela and Bolivia and its likely to fail as it did with Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot. The chances are that the death toll in South America will begin to rise steadily as the gaping hole at the centre of that discredited ideology are slowly revealed to a new population of the poverty stricken ill educated masses. I'm guessing Chavez didn't go hungry tonight. "A luta continua" indeed. Turning Venezuela into a Stalinst theme park like North Korea is very likely to end in tears. I'm with Juan Carlos on the Hugo Chavez issue.

I like England. I am English. I'd like to keep it that way just as those of other nations wish the same for themselves. It's very fashionable amongst the far left and those suffering from the curse of Western Liberal Guilt to quote colonialism and the Empire as being the cause of the ills of the third world. I don't think the European empires have turned Zimbabwe into a basketcase in a single generation, or can be held responsible for the king of Burundi spending 33% of that nations GDP on a private jet or the genocides in Rwanda and Darfur. It is obvious that it can be done in sub-Saharan Africa. Botswana is a huge success story, indeed the success story of that continent. A well run, wealthy democratic nation in the heart of Africa. If they can do it after being a British protectorate why can't others?

It's possibly a controversial view but I don't really think British police forces should have to spend valuable resouces on investigating African witchcraft murders and I don't think women should be trafficked for sex into the UK from Eastern Europe but I suppose some here may see those practices as in some way denying a minority a cultural outlet.

Simply put those coming here should be firstly legal and secondly obey the laws of the nation. As for the wheeling out of the tired old "Brits in Spain" bullshit I would remind those still using this distraction technique the vast majority of Brits turing up there sell up their property and possessions and arrive there with money to buy a property and enough to feed, clothe and house themselves in their later years, something that cannot be said of those hiding under a tarpaulin in a lorry destined for Birmingham, Bristol or Bolton.

 

[comrade]

Of course Morrissey is right but not necessarily for the reasons being discussed on here.

The whole aim of the EU is and always has been nothing more than to create a supranational, totalitarian European superstate, another rung on the globalist ladder to world government.

Certain levels of immigration are clearly beneficial for the majority of western nations but mass uncontrolled immigration outweighs those benefits, the economy becomes a bigger economy, not necessarily a wealthier economy per capita. What we are witnessing in the UK is the creation of a new mass underclass, consuming the cheap and mostly failed products of our system - anyone who ventures near a provincial town centre on a Saturday afternoon anywhere in England will notice that.

As a working class boy, I was devestated i missed the announcement where UK workers suddenly no longer had to graft for a living, where any idiot could become a "supervisor" just because they spoke English. "They do the jobs we don't want to" - Since when did we (the Brits I assume) get that right? Please enlighten me.

It's a sorry state of affairs and has nothing to do with race, colour or religion though how the Asian populus seems to walk the work permits system and educational institutions is beyond me - another debate perhaps. (££££)

This has all been created solely to advance the agendas of the elite on a global scale and the bank balances of the property owners and shaleholders on a national scale - the same people who don't have to shop at Asda in the middle of a now UK minority neighbourhood but who howl racism as soon as their new slave labour supplies are threatened and who, for some unknown reason, seem to get their message over to the ordinary folks who start spouting the same multicultural rubbish - their middle management probably!

Internationalism!?! Why not put our energies into creating a fairer world with nation states existing peacefully and in prosperity together. No??

Living in the UK is already shit - same town, same chains - no matter where you go! The last thing I want is to take a trip to some out of the way Eastern European town and walk down the main street past MacDonalds, Next, Starbucks.. Preserving our own culture and communities is one of the only things we have, it is a weapon against those who would quite happily divide and conquer, those who care less who is doing the work so long as their bank balance is swelling and their power trip is buzzing - last time I checked, that ain't the folks that come posting on this board.

That aint me either and sure as f***, for all the folk who think that £30, 40, 50k, a mortgage and a couple of cars or whatever it is you think is acceptable living in the UK - nobody gonna give a shit about you or your family or what you think once we're all 'Europeans' because hey, you're just too expensive and you spent too much of your time thinking about yourself, making sure you fitted in rather than paying attention to what was actually happening in the world.

Therefore, our Moz is right but we don't have to be sentimental - I wasn't alive in the 60's period oft quoted but I can see with my own eyes what is happening to this country and others in the year 2007.

We will only have ourselves to blame.

 

[2-J]

but you are trying to justify discriminating against a particular race based on nothing else but they are from a particular country

It's not an argument based on races, it's an argument based on citizenship of certain nations. If there are black people living in Poland (I'm sure there must be at least a few) then what I am saying would apply to them just as much.

with logic such as "they are taking our jobs" something that is not reflected in the statistics. ......if a uk national is losing out on a position, merely based on wage alone, then this is not correct. but mainly this is not the case . reports over and over again have indicated that poles are taking the jobs that otherwise will not be filled. this week, there was a report on the bbc speaking with bus companies in manchester who were saying that without the poles, they would have to restrict their services because they would have no drivers. and they were paid the standard rate. .... you can keep repeating that poles are taking the jobs off uk nationals but this is simply not backed up with the statistics.

Well you haven't actually provided any evidence beyond the anecdotal. I've seen BBC reports too with people, especially in certain trades, finding it hard to find work or complaining that their earnings have fallen with the extra labour on the market (I have also heard about this through two unrelated acquaintances). It stands to reason that labour costs and therefore will fall with the immigration levels we are currently experiencing from Poland so there are other reasons for believing this could happen. Cite some serious statistics and we can discuss them else for all me 'repeating that poles are taking the jobs off uk nationals', you are just repeating that they aren't.

the "taking our jobs" excuse is one that is repeated over and over throughout the years, changing it's focus with whomever is flavour of the month at that time.

Well I'm not getting into this, it may be true for some people but not me personally.

of course, every nation should be able to determine it's policies on employment and immigration. the uk chose this. this has not been enforced on this nation.

The country chose to join the EU, there was a general consensus on that. But there is still the separate question as to whether the admission of Poland and some of the other eastern european nations really accorded with the spirit of why we signed the EU treaty.

you do realise the uk is benefitting from the poles coming here don't you? if not culturally, then ecomonically, namely, the polish pound?

To an extent - but to the extent that they've put UK citizens out of work, those people have correspondingly less spending power. So again, maybe controlled immigration as opposed to full EU membership could have got us all the benefits with none of the ill effects.

its growing ecomony will only benefit the eu in the long term.

At which point I would have welcomed it with open arms. And yes, it would be a more acceptable situation had Poland joined the EU at that point.

 

[Always Felt Had]

Mass immigration is incompatable with true socialism. It is used by business to keep wages low. Poles are often willing to work for extremely low wages

This is certainly true but it has been going on with internal immigration for years. Northerners moving south for work? And similar arguments were made against woman being allowed to work too.

Yeah the more labour available to the bosses the lower the wage they can pay. The more people looking for housing the higher the rent the landlord can charge and so on. Mass immigration is certainly good for the rich.

That said this doesn't mean working class people should join with the nationalists and call for immigration controls. If we had no immigration we'd still be screwed the same as before. Just look back to the 1930s when we had no mass immigration. It was a hardly a workers paradise, was it?

The other point is that immigration should be good for all. The more people you have, the more work than can be done and the more wealth that can be created. That is why, in a way, when liberals say immigration is good the economy they're right but they just fail to point out that it only benefits a minority.

At the end of the day, I have little say on anything, nevermind immigration controls. We have a democracy the Ancient Greeks wouldn't recognise. This being the case we're probably going to have to lump mass immigration, whether we like it or not. The choice is then whether or not to unite and organise with these fellow foriegn workers or join with the assorted others with an agenda and make life hard for them? And the establishment loves nothing more than seeing poor workers, of all races, nationalities and colours, fighting among each other for the crumbs from the table.

Finally for me, getting back to Moz, the fact that he is the son of immigrants himself (and I'm 2nd generation Irish too) makes it even worst. His parents came here for a better life and to give him a better life. Now he wants to stop others stopped from doing the same? Pull up the ladder? Very sad. Of course he isn't alone. Lots of immigrants, nevermind the children of, feel the same but that doesn't mean they're right.

 

[2-J]

I certainly agree with you that lowering wages is a problem but it hasn't been as large as many predicted. However it should not be tolerated. It should be the skill and not the prices that counts.

But that's still not the whole issue. The basis of joining the EU is mutual benefit, within acceptable margins. If there are more people around who can do a job suddenly, and there no more jobs overall available to those people, then they can be paid correspondingly less (that's simple economics). So why should we admit a country to the EU club that will send lots of workers but have few or no corresponding well-paid openings for our workers? That is the heart of the matter. Again, small inequalities are fine, but when mass immigration occurs (as HAS occurred from Poland to the UK) then it is a bit in-your-face that something has gone wrong - a country is taking far more than it is giving. The EU was not founded to be some big socialist unit - there was always a socialist element in there, but within the bounds of self-interest of the member states who chose to sign the treaty.

 

[Augustus]

We talk blithely of the EU member states but I don't think that will be the main problem in the next few decades. The ones likely to save us are our dear old friends the French who will veto any EU expansion for some considerable time, I believe.

Like those crossing the Rio Grande into the USA the main problems will be from those crossing the Mediterranean into Europe. We must do something more to help Africa onto its feet and that must start by rewarding those leaders prepared to govern the people for the benefit of the people and harshly dealing with those who do not, perhaps even militarily.

God forbid that any of us should be a poverty stricken African tonight because we all know that with a ha'peth of gumption we'd be doing anything we could to get to Europe and in particular to the UK. My concern, and that of many here I believe, is that if things continue there will not be a UK to get to one day, or certainly not one worth risking ones life to reach.

The left lionise those attacking the coalition in Iraq as fighting the occupiers to protect their land. Oddly when we wish to do the same but without the use of IEDs and large sharp knives we are held up as the epitome of evil. I'm convinced that the far left are even more dangerous than the far right. At least the extremists on the right know they're nuts. The far left don't suspect it even in their quiet moments.

Incidentally, and bearing in mind the name of this site, it isn't the first time Morrissey has been stitched up by the NME as we know. You'd think he'd have learnt his lesson. Finsburygate and the Union flag "incident" was apparently a racist statement in 1992. By the time Oasis were flying the flag and Ginger Spice was wearing a Union flag dress NME thought it was the very height of "Cool Britannia". The hypocrisy is revolting, "Bengali In Platforms" or no.

The NME is now, and indeed has been for some time, a comic. Any serious music credentials it once had were lost many years ago. Stories recently of its imminent demise cheered me up immensely. "Come, Armageddon, come."

 

[Worm]

Finally for me, getting back to Moz, the fact that he is the son of immigrants himself (and I'm 2nd generation Irish too) makes it even worst. His parents came here for a better life and to give him a better life. Now he wants to stop others stopped from doing the same? Pull up the ladder? Very sad.

Morrissey did not say "pull up the ladder". He wants "sensible" management of immigration. There's a big difference.

 

[Always Felt Had]

Morrissey did not say "pull up the ladder". He wants "sensible" management of immigration. There's a big difference.

'Sensible management' still means that he would deny the same right to some that his parents had. He alludes to exactly this in the first interview in fact but then goes back on it later on. I think the fella is very confused on this really.

He doesn't explain his views on English or British culture very well, bar not hearing English accents in Knightsbridge or wherever. Again I'm 2nd generation Irish working class and I regard myself as British/English, like him, but I don't think 'Britain' is disappearing at all. And I live in an area with historically high immigration.

It is true that multiculturalism is problematic and has caused segregation but that is the fault of multiculturalism, which has been handed down from above, (probably to deliberately divide workers) and not the fault of immigration or immigrants. Most immigrants voluntarily assimilate or somewhere down the line their children do. Moz is a prime example of that. He isn't any less British because his parents were Irish. So I just don't get where he is coming from.

 

[Buzzetta]

That's not a very convincing example, though. We have a very low unemployment rate here, relatively speaking. Last's month's unemployment rate for NYC is 5.3%. I doubt that a sizeable portion of those unemployed citizens tried to get jobs as bartenders, only to be priced out by immigrant labor.

I am going to speak from experience here. The majority of bartenders in the private sector are from various sources. The hipster crowd dominates the Williamsburg Greenpoint of Brooklyn. A lot of college girls do the trendy places in Manhattan. Irish bars attracting the nostalgic Irish hire Irish bartenders to support the aurora of the place. It is the same as Italian places in Little Italy hiring Italian waiters who speak italian to support that ambiance when dining.

 

[Augustus]

'Sensible management' still means that he would deny the same right to some that his parents had.

You assume his parents would not have reached the then required criteria and as they got in it seems that they almost certainly did.

No-one here (thus far) has said that there should be no immigration, merely that it should be managed in a more controlled manner and more effort should be made to prevent illegal immigration. There are clearly benefits from immigration but there is also a tipping point and it doesn't matter if that point has been really reached merely that it is perceived to have been reached by the general population.

In a BBC Panorama report in 2005 it was revealed that 36% of AIDS beds in East London were taken by African nationals. Were you a second generation Briton who had worked and paid taxes all your life and were stricken by that illness would you consider if fair that your treatment could not given because some bloke turned up from Nairobi the previous week? I'm all for charity, but idiocy?

When the new nations joined the EU it was estimated by the UK government that 13,000 people would come here from Poland alone. The actual figure is estimated to be in excess of 500,000. If a corporation had gotten its figures wrong by that amount the CEO and entire board would have to resign.

Tuberculosis was wiped out in this country twenty years ago. Now London is the TB capital of Europe. The state of public health is appalling in some parts of our nation and that's amongst UK citizens. If you then allow some with communicable diseases in without let or hinderance how is that to the benefit of the general populace? In my opinion that is just ludicrous. Just a few months ago a health warning was issued in the USA for a man with TB who had travelled by air against the wishes of his doctors putting the health of his fellow travellers at risk. In the UK we seem to have a more laisse faire attitude towards public health. Too fat? Tut tut. Binge Drinker? Oh dear. TB or AIDS? What time can you get here?

In Australia they have stringent health checks and an immigration policy that works and that is in a nation with an immense border to protect. There is not the political will to do the same here in no small part, I suspect, to ensure certain parties are assured a grip on power in decades to come as second generation voters recall with moist eyes just which party allowed Grandad in on a passport made from milk bottle tops.

 

[Worm]

'Sensible management' still means that he would deny the same right to some that his parents had. He alludes to exactly this in the first interview in fact but then goes back on it later on. I think the fella is very confused on this really.

He doesn't explain his views on English or British culture very well, bar not hearing English accents in Knightsbridge or wherever. Again I'm 2nd generation Irish working class and I regard myself as British/English, like him, but I don't think 'Britain' is disappearing at all. And I live in an area with historically high immigration.

It is true that multiculturalism is problematic and has caused segregation but that is the fault of multiculturalism, which has been handed down from above, (probably to deliberately divide workers) and not the fault of immigration or immigrants. Most immigrants voluntarily assimilate or somewhere down the line their children do. Moz is a prime example of that. He isn't any less British because his parents were Irish. So I just don't get where he is coming from.

I missed the part about his parents in the first interview. He does say "[Y]ou have to allow others the same freedom, really. So I'm not sitting here saying it's a terrible thing. I'm saying it's a reality and to many people it's shocking". Before that he admits that immigration is "enriching" and "is nice in its way".

If there is a contradiction there, it's that the first time he says everyone should have the same freedom and the second time he says it should be managed sensibly. So if anything the assumption should be that Morrissey wavers between letting anyone in and regulation, not that he's torn between shutting the gates and regulation. The contradiction, mild as it is, makes him look more tolerant, not less.

He also says, in the second part, answering the direct question about his parents, that in his view "it's different now". He doesn't see the situations as being identical. As Augustus said, his parents might still have been allowed to come over to Manchester. Clearly he thinks matters have gotten much worse. Recent studies, whatever else they prove, indicate that things have changed somewhat. For better or worse I can't say, but Morrissey isn't just grousing over nothing.

Does he define what "Britishness" is? Not in this interview, no, merely remarking that it's "quaint" and "amusing". But for his entire career he has used images and words to describe his vanished England fairly well. His obsession with British kitchen sink dramas, for one-- not only were they English movies he loved, he loved them expressly because he felt they were realistic depictions of England, not Hollywood schlock, so whatever, say, "A Taste of Honey" might be, that is the England he loves. In the 80s he complained about the "Americanisation" of England. In 1984 he was complaining that they were tearing down all the old buildings in Manchester. In "The Queen Is Dead" he sings about the royals, the churches and the pubs as the culprits (plus some quiff-flattening hair).

No, I think we have a pretty good idea of what England means to Morrissey. He's been railing about it for years. Also, I don't know how old you are, but if, like me, you are at least a few decades younger than Morrissey, you ought to consider that he has seen more of England's changes than you and I. As he says, "It may be shocking to some"-- that is, to people who may remember a very different kind of England. Finally, I suppose it needs to be pointed out, although it shouldn't, that Morrissey has always loved England and hated parts of it as well. His love of country has always been qualified. One listen to "Irish Blood, English Heart" proves that. He isn't some nationalist zealot.

Sorry to go on like this. I know you have a unique perspective, being second generation yourself, but let's try and fix on exactly what Morrissey has said and not said. I've been reading Morrissey interviews for twenty years and this is, by far, the most direct and sensible statements he's ever made on subjects like immigration and racism. As he says, he is a cosmopolitan man now. He's earned the right to lament the passing away of the England of his youth.

 

[Peter45]

Firstly i'd like to say hello to everyone as this is my first post here

I think Morrissey has been set up here by the N.M.E.(i was at Madstock in 92), but from what i've read here, it seems he's only answered the questions he was asked. What was he meant to say? It's the truth what he's said, and he hasn't even lived here for years and he's noticed the sudden change in Britain over the last few years. Anyone would have to be blind to think that there isn't a problem with the influx of migrants into this country.

 

[Worm]

Firstly i'd like to say hello to everyone as this is my first post here

I think Morrissey has been set up here by the N.M.E.(i was at Madstock in 92), but from what i've read here, it seems he's only answered the questions he was asked. What was he meant to say? It's the truth what he's said, and he hasn't even lived here for years and he's noticed the sudden change in Britain over the last few years. Anyone would have to be blind to think that there isn't a problem with the influx of migrants into this country.

Welcome.

I'm in no position to say what's true or not in England, but your post brings up an interesting little point. "He's noticed the sudden change"-- not only has he had these experiences, it's also worth mentioning, as I did in the other thread, that immigration was a big news story in the English press during the period Morrissey was interviewed. He wasn't dragging up old axes to grind. He was merely being topical. The NME ought to have noted, if only in brief, that Morrissey might well have been speaking about the recent immigration reports.

 

[snapyou]

Do you listen to John Gaunt each day on Talk Sport (10am - 1pm)? You sound like a regular contributor (usually London taxi drivers)

No one says anything about thousands of Brits now living in Spain, shafting the local Spanish culture, reading the Sun everyday and watching Sky Sports whilst saying 'Landan ain't Landan anymore, to many bladdy foreigners init'.

The British Empire has done more to mess around with other nations cultures than any other over the past 400-200 years, so we are getting a taste of our own medicine and it dosn't taste nice does it? We reap what we sow.

Jukebox Jury

EXACTLY !