Do you consider Morrissey to be the greatest lyricist of all time?

[Qvist]

Oberst and porter, how could i forget. Not altogether convinced i am with you with antony hegarty though, not as a lyricist at least.

 

[Qvist]

Mark E Smith is probably the only other contender in this thread that I could even consider a great lyricist. (Davey Havok, Connor Oberst, and the guy from the Gaslight Anthem. Are you joking?)

People say Cohen or Dylan but neither have been consistently good.

I'm frankly shocked that no one has said Lou Reed.

I considered him, but frankly i think his lyrics are uneven, to say the least.

 

[VivaLove]

The two are blurred. That's not my opinion, it's his.

Here is one quote:

"And what's always been most important to me are the vocal melodies, even more so than the lyrical content. That's really the key to the songs surviving." Morrissey (Interview, 1997)

The vocal melodies can't be separated from the lyrics, and if that's true then the vocals (melodies/lyrics) can't be separated from the music. So while it's possible to evaluate his songs as strings of words on a piece of paper, that's far from the complete picture. As an easy example, think about the middle of "The Boy With The Thorn In His Side", when he breaks off and starts humming or half-yodeling or whatever it is he's doing. Those aren't words. They don't show up on the lyric sheet. But without them the song loses something important; by the same token, the noise he's making would be unlistenable without the music behind it.

"Music" excluded vocal melodies, those belong to lyrics in my eyes. Anyway, I agree.

 

[SparkleBoy]

Find me one lyricist who has been as consistently solid and has brought out such an extreme reaction from fans because of those very lyrics throughout their entire musical career.

I'll save you the trouble.... You can't.

Bob Dylan's lyrics not only changed the course of popular music, but also caused an intense amount of controversy from album to album. Like him or not, Dylan's lyrics/lyrical style changed EVERYTHING. It's been about 50 years since his first LP, so I can't blame you if you are too young to remember the impact he had.

EDIT: I almost forgot - read up on when Dylan simply put on an electric guitar and his "fans" incessantly booed him. I think there is even a full-length documentary on the event. Morrissey had a tiny impact relative to Dylan, which is too bad, cuz I really can't stand Dylan!

 

[Worm]

I'm frankly shocked that no one has said Lou Reed.

I'd noticed that, too. I think it goes back to what I wrote, above, about Ian Curtis' use of words. It sort of indicates that maybe a distinction should be made between lyrics and words. All lyricists write words for songs, but not everyone who writes words for songs is necessarily a lyricist. The dictionary definition I have for "lyricist" is very specific: "A person who writes the words to a popular song or musical". In my view maybe there has to be separate categories for writers of pop songs and writers working in rock music or the arty regions of pop/rock hybrids. Lou Reed, Ian Curtis, and others like Patti Smith and David Byrne would belong to the second category. Morrissey belongs to the first.

I think it's a valid distinction because Morrissey has clearly always tried to write popular songs, meaning songs to be played in the charts. There are specific forms for pop music, as we all know, and Morrissey's greatness lies in his ability to smuggle the unlikeliest words and ideas into traditional forms, as well as tweak the forms themselves. (He wasn't the first to try this; among post-punk artists, Edwyn Collins did it first, and many think just as brilliantly, and at any rate I think Bob Dylan was probably the original.)

For art-rock-pop hybrids, it's more writerly in a general sense, by which I mean the songwriter is using words in an unorthodox way to stretch the boundaries of the popular form until it becomes something else entirely. Not to say they're not riffing on the forms in some way or other. Lou Reed was inspired by surf rock and Chuck Berry, among lots of others, so there's a pop element in the VU's stuff. But he was also influenced by the Beats, Burroughs, and others, so there are lots of different elements in play. He would swing back and forth between writing classic pop lyrics and provocative poetry that didn't quite fit into any category. This was true of Patti Smith (whose story we all know by now), and she's a great test case because although the words to "Horses" are often fantastic, they're more writerly than the her one big hit, "Because The Night", which was a lyric written by Bruce Springsteen. He, too, was capable of writing in both modes. Same for The Doors, with the split between The Jim Morrison Poetry Hour! crap and the hits Krieger wrote, which someone else mentioned above. The difference is obvious.

So I'd say that Lou Reed and also Ian Curtis (a reader of Burroughs, Ballard, and Céline) are great writers who fall into the 'writerly' category. Morrissey was influenced by Wilde, Delaney, and several other writers, but I don't think they influenced his writing in the same way. He's always working within specific forms, usually to brilliant effect, which is why he's arguably the best lyricist who ever lived-- though at the risk of being repetitious, as I said above I do think the music played a larger role in that success than others do. Because if we use my distinction to narrow the field to pure pop lyricists working in a specific form, and it comes down to sheer intelligence, inventiveness, word-craft, and wit, Morrissey would be a distant second to Stephin Merritt, and we know that can't possibly be true.

 

[Anaesthesine]

Oberst and porter, how could i forget. Not altogether convinced i am with you with antony hegarty though, not as a lyricist at least.

And I almost forgot Marc Almond, who has been turning vibrant verbal somersaults for nearly thirty years. I'll never understand why the man who wrote "Saint Judy" and "Beautiful Losers" is so often overlooked.

As for Antony, he is an interesting case: on paper his lyrics are minimal, but in the context of his songs they are staggering. Antony tells the story of being at the bedside of Kazuo Ohno as the great Butoh dancer died. Ohno's sons were in the process of creating a dance to one of Antony's songs "Her Eyes are Underneath the Ground." Antony was overwhelmed with the honor and asked why. Ohno's son replied: "Because that song is Butoh."

Personally I think it's one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard, and I have friends who also report being completely overwhelmed when they finally really lose themselves and listen to it. Live it's guaranteed to draw out the tears. Songs like "Another World" and "The Spirit was Gone" are anthems to something elusive and profound. So, not the greatest lyricist on paper but in the context of the music, purest poetry.

Marc Almond writes complex theatrical narratives, Antony writes the simplest prayers.

 

[Anonymous]

Bob Dylan's lyrics not only changed the course of popular music, but also caused an intense amount of controversy from album to album. Like him or not, Dylan's lyrics/lyrical style changed EVERYTHING. It's been about 50 years since his first LP, so I can't blame you if you are too young to remember the impact he had.

EDIT: I almost forgot - read up on when Dylan simply put on an electric guitar and his "fans" incessantly booed him. I think there is even a full-length documentary on the event. Morrissey had a tiny impact relative to Dylan, which is too bad, cuz I really can't stand Dylan!

I guess I should've been a bit more transparent when I said "extreme reaction" because, last time I checked, no one tried making out with Bob Dylan while he was playing a show ever.

 

[SparkleBoy]

I guess I should've been a bit more transparent when I said "extreme reaction" because, last time I checked, no one tried making out with Bob Dylan while he was playing a show ever.

I don't know if that's so extreme anymore. Haven't lead singers had to deal with that for decades already?

 

[wontshareyou]

I don't know if that's so extreme anymore. Haven't lead singers had to deal with that for decades already?

Uh.. no. Not to my knowledge, at least.

(Also. Not sure why Morrissey-Solo didn't keep me logged in with my previous post. Hmm.)

 

[Andrewroon]

By the popular definition of lyricist, Bob Dylan, in my opinion, wins with very little question. The sheer number of great songs 'lyrically' he has written is rivaled by no one including Morrissey, Lou Reed, Neil Young, John Lennon or anybody. Say what you will about the voice, by the popular definition of lyricist 'socially accepted if you will' Dylan has no peers.

 

[Iona Mink]

I don't think I know enough lyricists to answer the question. All time is a long time.

 

[Qvist]

And I almost forgot Marc Almond, who has been turning vibrant verbal somersaults for nearly thirty years. I'll never understand why the man who wrote "Saint Judy" and "Beautiful Losers" is so often overlooked.

As for Antony, he is an interesting case: on paper his lyrics are minimal, but in the context of his songs they are staggering. Antony tells the story of being at the bedside of Kazuo Ohno as the great Butoh dancer died. Ohno's sons were in the process of creating a dance to one of Antony's songs "Her Eyes are Underneath the Ground." Antony was overwhelmed with the honor and asked why. Ohno's son replied: "Because that song is Butoh."

Personally I think it's one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard, and I have friends who also report being completely overwhelmed when they finally really lose themselves and listen to it. Live it's guaranteed to draw out the tears. Songs like "Another World" and "The Spirit was Gone" are anthems to something elusive and profound. So, not the greatest lyricist on paper but in the context of the music, purest poetry.

Marc Almond writes complex theatrical narratives, Antony writes the simplest prayers.

A great story! I agree completely with the general thrust of what you write, the man is unique and brilliant. I just meant his lyrics lacks a stand-alone quality, to the point where they sometimes border on the annoying. But you make a convincing case that that is really not the best angle to approach them from.

I just read that he performed Janitor of Lunacy at Throbbing Gristle's remake of Nico's Desertshore, at a memorial event for Peter Christopherson in Newcastle. That I should like to hear.

 

[Anonymous Bosch]

The greatest lyricist of all Time is surely Prince, followed closely by Morris Day.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

...And if not then who is?

My top

5:

1. Moz
2. Suzanne Vega
3. John Lennon
4. Stephin Merritt
5. Robert Smith

 

[Anonymous Bosch]

5:

1. Moz
2. Suzanne Vega
3. John Lennon
4. Stephin Merritt
5. Robert Smith

I agree with all of these except #4. Merritt can come up with some sublime lyrics, but I find that too much of his stuff is just cheesy and wanna-be artsy-fartsy.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

The greatest lyricist of all Time is surely Prince, followed closely by Morris Day.

A couple years ago I made plans to meet up with a friend at this street fair in LA called Sunset Junction where they close down a portion of Sunset and there's several stages with bands all playing at the same time on various parts of the street. We were going to meet at the Built to Spill stage. He never made it because Morris Day was playing in between where he parked and the Built to Spill stage, he just couldn't tear himself away it was THAT good.

 

[prisoner77]

Mark E Smith is probably the only other contender in this thread that I could even consider a great lyricist. (Davey Havok, Connor Oberst, and the guy from the Gaslight Anthem. Are you joking?)

People say Cohen or Dylan but neither have been consistently good.

I'm frankly shocked that no one has said Lou Reed.

For me it's Moz.
I'd put up Patti Smith, Lou Reed and John Cale.
Then Mark E Smith and Shane Magowan. Or are they just drunken ramblings.

 

[neverdream]

As far as words that inspire me, yes.
As far as writing consistently good songs, Martin Gore.

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

I agree with all of these except #4. Merritt can come up with some sublime lyrics, but I find that too much of his stuff is just cheesy and wanna-be artsy-fartsy.

well, I am wondering if you have ever been with the "love of your life" and lost them?
if so, then

this album might have the deep significance it has to me, particularly its song writing, incidentally, I only discovered this band because someone(Mr Smith?) in the old chat room suggested I give them a listen, that was 6 or 7 years ago, and it still resonates for me almost as the first time I listened to them, particularly 7 songs:
7. Let's Pretend We're Bunny Rabbits
6. All My Little Words
5. Promises Of Eternity
4. Busby Berkely Dreams
3. A Chicken With Its Head Cut Off
2. Papa Was A Rodeo
1.

also, looking at my list, I really should have put Jarvis Cocker on it and some others:
6. Jarvis Cocker
7. David Bowie
8. Peter Murphy
9. Brian Molko
10.. Regina Spektor

OK, now to read some other people's lists...

 

[Oh my god. it's Robby!]

As far as words that inspire me, yes.
As far as writing consistently good songs, Martin Gore.

oh Martin Gore, I forgot him, just don't listen to DM much anymore, I wonder why
also, I got a kick out of reading that someone put Frank Sinatra & Elvis on top of their lists
how many of their hits did they write?