From Tony Wilson's last interview

[BillyBud]

You say Factory was about finding bands no one else wanted, who were the bands you didn’t want?

I don’t think we missed out on anybody, but the bands I didn’t sign that were successful were obviously The Smiths and The Stone Roses. I always thought Steven (Morrissey) was going to be our novelist, our Dostoyevsky, in fact I lost a one act play he wrote about eating toast in Hulme. But I got a phone call one day asking me to come over because he had something to tell me. I went to his mum’s house and he took me into his bedroom with a poster of James Dean on the wall, and he told me that he was going to be a pop star. I had to stifle my laughter because I thought this was the last person in the world about to become a pop star. I had a conversation with Richard Boon, Buzzcocks’ manager and a mutual friend, saying can you believe he’d ever be a pop star? Four months later I went to either their first or second gig at the Manhattan club and being utterly stunned. I remember walking out and Richard saying, “Now do you believe me?” Obviously I did, it was stunning.
But that point in time, there are three stories. The Smiths’ story is that Wilson was a c***, blah blah blah, there is my version of the story which is that I had James and Stockholm Monsters and couldn’t sell their singles, and Factory was two and a half years old and a dinosaur. Not marketing and being weird had worked very, very well, but suddenly it had grown old and stale. I was very depressed at the time.

The full thing is here: http://news.q4music.com/2007/08/anthony_wilson_the_last_interv.html

 

[Worm]

Thanks, more Tony Wilson is always welcome.

I found this interesting:

"Obviously New Order were grammar school boys in certain ways, and then suddenly you get another burst of real working class rock’n’roll activity with the Mondays and the Roses, which is one of the reason why they’re not still around while the nice middle class work ethic boys of U2 and Coldplay do very well.

Why? Because they have better financial advisors?

No, it’s the work ethic. If you’re middle class you have a work ethic where it’s a wonderful job and you work at it and you make lots of money and take it seriously. If you’re working class in the music industry it’s like robbing the bank. Rob the bank, take the money, shove it up your nose and f*** off. I’m quoting Happy Mondays’ agent Martin Gallagher there."​

Did Morrissey and Marr, as businessmen, lack that all-important work ethic? If so, was it a bad thing?

 

[Danny]

Thanks, more Tony Wilson is always welcome.

I found this interesting:

"Obviously New Order were grammar school boys in certain ways, and then suddenly you get another burst of real working class rock’n’roll activity with the Mondays and the Roses, which is one of the reason why they’re not still around while the nice middle class work ethic boys of U2 and Coldplay do very well.

Why? Because they have better financial advisors?

No, it’s the work ethic. If you’re middle class you have a work ethic where it’s a wonderful job and you work at it and you make lots of money and take it seriously. If you’re working class in the music industry it’s like robbing the bank. Rob the bank, take the money, shove it up your nose and f*** off. I’m quoting Happy Mondays’ agent Martin Gallagher there."​

Did Morrissey and Marr, as businessmen, lack that all-important work ethic? If so, was it a bad thing?

I think it has more to do with drug abuse than work ethic. It's got nothing to do with class either, that nice middle class boy Pete Doherty is doing just as good a job at the moment pissing it up the wall. Morrissey has always had a pretty good work ethic.

It's just Tony Wilson being his usual patronising self to his working class protegees. At heart the man was a snob.

 

[Coiffeur_En_Flame]

I think it has more to do with drug abuse than work ethic. It's got nothing to do with class either, that nice middle class boy Pete Doherty is doing just as good a job at the moment pissing it up the wall. Morrissey has always had a pretty good work ethic.

It's just Tony Wilson being his usual patronising self to his working class protegees. At heart the man was a snob.

I have no doubt that Wilson was a bit of a snob, but I'm not sure we can really class Morrissey as working class, can we? Both his parents had average income jobs, they moved the family to a nice semi in the suburbs, young Moz didn't exactly lead a deprived life. On the other hand, his parents weren't Daily Mail reading Middle Englanders on a good wage, so I'm not sure how we define him really.

Coiff.

 

[Worm]

I have no doubt that Wilson was a bit of a snob, but I'm not sure we can really class Morrissey as working class, can we? Both his parents had average income jobs, they moved the family to a nice semi in the suburbs, young Moz didn't exactly lead a deprived life. On the other hand, his parents weren't Daily Mail reading Middle Englanders on a good wage, so I'm not sure how we define him really.

Coiff.

Completely agree. Even allowing for differing definitions of the term I don't see how Morrissey can be considered "working class". (But I'm not sure that he makes that claim so rigidly, anyway.)

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

I thought Morrissey portrayed himself as very working class. I don't know, but the types of jobs his parents had wouldn't be considered middle class in the US.

Morrissey has extraordinary drive consider how messed up- ok, I'll call him mercurial- he is. There are times when he has acted batshit crazy and look where he is. He's got some kind of work ethic despite his apparent inability to be normal.

I really do love him, but he's even more difficult than I am. And I am a relative loser.

 

[Worm]

I thought Morrissey portrayed himself as very working class. I don't know, but the types of jobs his parents had wouldn't be considered middle class in the US.

It's difficult to say. He portrayed himself as working class but it could just as easily be interpreted as feelings of sympathy or solidarity, or maybe conventionally bohemian leanings. I mean, his stories weren't about working 18 hour shifts in an auto plant. It was more like, "I adore Shelagh Delaney and my Levi's are torn". Matters are further complicated because "working class" is a sought-after badge of honor to some people-- see Tony Wilson's interview-- so he might have fudged a little. The guys in New Order seem to have been more working class than he was, and they regarded him as anything but "one of their own".

Still, it's hard to get an idea of just how poorly he and his family were doing financially. We're not really in a position to say what he was or wasn't. Can't really roll our eyes at his pretensions without first seeing his mother's bank balances. I just know that "working class" kids don't have the luxury of sitting in their rooms all day typing out soap opera scripts and reading James Dean biographies.

My guess is that his complaints about being deprived stem from belonging to that "tweener" segment of the middle class that is not as financially limited as the working class yet for whatever reason is also denied the privileges of the upper middle classes. (Perhaps because of the school system-- a lot of his griping was over the schools he attended.) An interesting demographic, although I admit I'm basing this on my observations in the States. Someone in England could comment more accurately I'm sure.

Anyway it's just one more knotty, fascinating mystery about Morrissey we'll never solve.

 

[Danny]

Morrissey grew up on a northern council estate in the sixties and seventies. His dad was a hospital porter and his mum worked in a library (non qualified which isn't that different from a shop assistant, believe me, I did that job for a couple of years). If that's not working class I don't know what is.

 

[dogsbody]

Morrissey grew up on a northern council estate in the sixties and seventies. His dad was a hospital porter and his mum worked in a library (non qualified which isn't that different from a shop assistant, believe me, I did that job for a couple of years). If that's not working class I don't know what is.

Quite. You could never describe him as middle class surely.

Nowadays it seems to me that the middle classes are getting bigger with fewer and fewer working class but a large almost underclass.

 

[Worm]

Morrissey grew up on a northern council estate in the sixties and seventies. His dad was a hospital porter and his mum worked in a library (non qualified which isn't that different from a shop assistant, believe me, I did that job for a couple of years). If that's not working class I don't know what is.

Right. And as dogsbody said, you couldn't call him middle class. But how does this square with his life leading up to The Smiths? The description you've just given has "working class" written all over it, I agree. So how is it Morrissey could say, "I've never had a job because I've never wanted one?" Is that a common experience of a "working class" person? To me "working class" isn't just defined solely on where his parents worked or in what neighborhood he lived-- what kind of experience did he have?

To repeat: I'm not calling him out as a fake and ultimately I don't care about whether or not the label "working class" (or any label) applies to Morrissey. Just a topic of mild interest to me because I'm curious about the ways these strict definitions of "working class"/"middle class" break down. For example, if his parents had had solid middle-class jobs, wouldn't a lot of Morrissey's experiences as a young man seem just as class-appropriate?

 

[dogsbody]

The use of class labels is interesting though. In my experience the people most obsessed/vocal about class are those that are on the borderline between working class and middle class and determined to be seen as working class! There are monty python and fast show sketches about this of course!

What is also interesting is that some professions that are traditionally working class (eg plumber) can now command much higher salaries than some traditionally middle calls professions (administrators or teachers) so things will change over time.

Personnally I have always considered myself working class as I grew up in a traditionally working class area, my parents had working class jobs and I went to shit schools etc. But now I have a good job, a nice house, been to university and have travelled the world etc. That is not working class at all so I guess I am now middle class (albeit lower middle class - see i can't help myself distinguishing myself from posher people - think this may be a british obsession but not sure). Having said that in a previous office I worked in we had a discussion about class and one person thought myself and another colleague were the only ones he considered to be working class as we were the only ones with accents (cockney and welsh) so go figure.

having said that as soon as I hear some posh dickhead talking on the TV eg James Blunt or some english ex-public school boy rugby player, I still want to punch the TV. But that is my problem not thiers!

Back to morrissey (horray, you say). Maybe like me he was once working class but is now middle class. Of course none of this matters and as worm said it is only a label (but if it doesn't matter why did I bother writing any of the above?)

 

[Amy]

No-one can change their social class in my opinion. You can change your job, your area, your income, but not your class. Morrissey was and always will be working-class at heart, I don't care how many millions he has in the bank or luxury homes in the States. He grew up with very little like a lot of people in the North and that shapes your character more than a later career does.

I think some people forget how lucky Morrissey has been. If Marr hadn't coming knocking on his door and if the Smiths' weren't lucky enough to be signed to a record label, it's highly likely Morrissey would be the same awkward, "financially embarrassed" Mancunian now that he was when he was 17, on the dole without a penny to scratch his arse with, playing shitty clubs in Manchester for peanuts.

 

[Worm]

The use of class labels is interesting though. In my experience the people most obsessed/vocal about class are those that are on the borderline between working class and middle class and determined to be seen as working class! There are monty python and fast show sketches about this of course!

What is also interesting is that some professions that are traditionally working class (eg plumber) can now command much higher salaries than some traditionally middle calls professions (administrators or teachers) so things will change over time.

Personnally I have always considered myself working class as I grew up in a traditionally working class area, my parents had working class jobs and I went to shit schools etc. But now I have a good job, a nice house, been to university and have travelled the world etc. That is not working class at all so I guess I am now middle class (albeit lower middle class - see i can't help myself distinguishing myself from posher people - think this may be a british obsession but not sure). Having said that in a previous office I worked in we had a discussion about class and one person thought myself and another colleague were the only ones he considered to be working class as we were the only ones with accents (cockney and welsh) so go figure.

having said that as soon as I hear some posh dickhead talking on the TV eg James Blunt or some english ex-public school boy rugby player, I still want to punch the TV. But that is my problem not thiers!

Back to morrissey (horray, you say). Maybe like me he was once working class but is now middle class. Of course none of this matters and as worm said it is only a label (but if it doesn't matter why did I bother writing any of the above?)

Yes, exactly, the terminology bends and stretches in different places. Since you describe yourself as working class growing up and middle class now, do you think that the two terms are strictly defined by economics? Or do you think there's a state of mind that goes with each that maybe doesn't change, i.e. as you're traveling the world you're still a working class person at heart, as Amy says of Morrissey?

Hypothetically, is it possible to live in a working class home and have a middle class way of looking at things?

I realize these questions are sort of absurd but just for the sake of argument...

 

[dogsbody]

Yes, exactly, the terminology bends and stretches in different places. Since you describe yourself as working class growing up and middle class now, do you think that the two terms are strictly defined by economics? Or do you think there's a state of mind that goes with each that maybe doesn't change, i.e. as you're traveling the world you're still a working class person at heart, as Amy says of Morrissey?

Hypothetically, is it possible to live in a working class home and have a middle class way of looking at things?

I realize these questions are sort of absurd but just for the sake of argument...

It is absurd but interesting too!

As you say the trouble is the lack of any strict definitions. I had a lecturer who told me that he had told his kids he considered himself working class and they had apparently found this very amusing. They considered him to be very middle class. He told them/me he that still considered himself to be working class because of the 'outlook' (whatever the hell that is although I think he meant political opinions). The problem is if someone had a shit job in a rundown area with poor parents etc but had a diferent 'outlook' would he not be working class or a very poor member of the middle classes!

When Amy says that you can't change your character eg if you were raised working class you will remain working class till you die I can understand her point. But there is no 'working class charachter'. The problem is that two people with the same jobs living in same areas with the same income could have totally diferent outlooks eg one reads the Sun, votes tory, eats mcdonald, the other reads the guardian, is a veggie and votes respect.

I think I have managed to say the same thing in two diferent ways!

The problem with my argument is if there is a Lord or Duke who become penniless, have to do working class jobs and live in a run down area do they become working class? Probably not. Would be fun to see though!

I think the compromise is that Morrissey probably still thinks he is working class at heart. Can we all agree that?

 

[dogsbody]

It is absurd but interesting too!

The problem is that two people with the same jobs living in same areas with the same income could have totally diferent outlooks eg one reads the Sun, votes tory, eats mcdonald, the other reads the guardian, is a veggie and votes respect.
?

Of course I am being totally prejeduced there. There are plent of vegetarian tories and loads of meat eating socialists out there as well!

 

[Coiffeur_En_Flame]

There are plenty of vegetarian tories...

They don't care about defenceless humans, what makes you think it's any different for animals!

Back to the point of classes, I disagree that it's not possible to change. My grandparents were Irish immigrants on the one side and Northern socialists on the other. Both my parents grew up in very poor, working-class environments. My father left school with one O-level. Only through gritty determination and hard-work did he manage to get on the career ladder, and over time he became a substantial earner, to the extent where my mother never had to work. My sisters and I have always lived in nice areas, we've never had to struggle as a family. We've lived a very middle-class life. But what always surprised me the most was the way in which my dad must have changed since his childhood. His father was a very active Labour campaigner and trade unionist. And yet my dad now has very conservative views and would balk at the idea that he is working-class. Whether this is just a rejection of his background in order to fit in, or a genuine change I'll never know, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Coiff.

 

[Worm]

It is absurd but interesting too!

As you say the trouble is the lack of any strict definitions. I had a lecturer who told me that he had told his kids he considered himself working class and they had apparently found this very amusing. They considered him to be very middle class. He told them/me he that still considered himself to be working class because of the 'outlook' (whatever the hell that is although I think he meant political opinions). The problem is if someone had a shit job in a rundown area with poor parents etc but had a diferent 'outlook' would he not be working class or a very poor member of the middle classes!

When Amy says that you can't change your character eg if you were raised working class you will remain working class till you die I can understand her point. But there is no 'working class charachter'. The problem is that two people with the same jobs living in same areas with the same income could have totally diferent outlooks eg one reads the Sun, votes tory, eats mcdonald, the other reads the guardian, is a veggie and votes respect.

I think I have managed to say the same thing in two diferent ways!

The problem with my argument is if there is a Lord or Duke who become penniless, have to do working class jobs and live in a run down area do they become working class? Probably not. Would be fun to see though!

I think the compromise is that Morrissey probably still thinks he is working class at heart. Can we all agree that?

Yeah, there's no question Morrissey regards himself as such. (And like I said above I'm not saying he is or isn't-- I have absolutely no proof, just conjecture.) It should be noted that it's questionable how rigidly he clings to his "working class" identity. It factors into his work but not to an extreme degree, such that he would come to blows with anyone who says he's not working class or whatever-- which is what I'd imagine would happen if you showed skepticism about the working class credentials of, say, Mark E. Smith or John Lydon.

(Speaking of Lydon it's amusing to read his thoughts on Glen Matlock's class status in Savage and elsewhere. According to them there was a huge class division between him and the other Pistols.)

 

[Danny]

Right. And as dogsbody said, you couldn't call him middle class. But how does this square with his life leading up to The Smiths? The description you've just given has "working class" written all over it, I agree. So how is it Morrissey could say, "I've never had a job because I've never wanted one?" Is that a common experience of a "working class" person? To me "working class" isn't just defined solely on where his parents worked or in what neighborhood he lived-- what kind of experience did he have?

To repeat: I'm not calling him out as a fake and ultimately I don't care about whether or not the label "working class" (or any label) applies to Morrissey. Just a topic of mild interest to me because I'm curious about the ways these strict definitions of "working class"/"middle class" break down. For example, if his parents had had solid middle-class jobs, wouldn't a lot of Morrissey's experiences as a young man seem just as class-appropriate?

If his parents had solid middle classed jobs for a start Morrissey wouldn't have grown up where he did. They'd have bought their own house rather than have to move where the state told them there was room for them. They'd have probably bought a house in an area where the houses were advertised as being close to good schools. If Morrissey had looked like failing the 11+ they'd have probably employed a tutor once a week to make sure he did pass. They'd have been through the education system to a high level themselves so would have been able to pass this experience onto their son.

So, Morrissey would have gone to a nice school in a nice area and when he started in the music business which is full of nice middle classed boys he'd have felt right at home and would not have had the chippy working class attitude he still has to this day when dealing with business and media people.

As far as being unemployed is concerned at the time it was a common experience for northern working classed people to be long term unemployed. It's not something the middle classes do for very long other than a year or so's dossing when they first leave college.

 

[Worm]

If his parents had solid middle classed jobs for a start Morrissey wouldn't have grown up where he did. They'd have bought their own house rather than have to move where the state told them there was room for them. They'd have probably bought a house in an area where the houses were advertised as being close to good schools. If Morrissey had looked like failing the 11+ they'd have probably employed a tutor once a week to make sure he did pass. They'd have been through the education system to a high level themselves so would have been able to pass this experience onto their son.

So, Morrissey would have gone to a nice school in a nice area and when he started in the music business which is full of nice middle classed boys he'd have felt right at home and would not have had the chippy working class attitude he still has to this day when dealing with business and media people.

As far as being unemployed is concerned at the time it was a common experience for northern working classed people to be long term unemployed. It's not something the middle classes do for very long other than a year or so's dossing when they first leave college.

Thanks as always for the detailed response.

I'm curious about the longterm unemployment. You're saying that Morrissey's experience would not have been uncommon? In the late Seventies/early Eighties a northern working class person might leave school and remain on the dole for five or six years at a stretch (give or take a few quick stints removing flesh)? That's very surprising. At what point would the state step in and put a halt to that-- or is there a time limit?

 

[Danny]

Thanks as always for the detailed response.

I'm curious about the longterm unemployment. You're saying that Morrissey's experience would not have been uncommon? In the late Seventies/early Eighties a northern working class person might leave school and remain on the dole for five or six years at a stretch (give or take a few quick stints removing flesh)? That's very surprising. At what point would the state step in and put a halt to that-- or is there a time limit?

At the time unemployment was so common they couldn't put a halt to it. There were simply no jobs. It was a national scandal and unemployment was the main issue that the political parties campaigned on.

Things are different these days. There are all sorts of government schemes and courses you have to go on if you've been out of work for a while, or they stop your money.