Israel & Lebanon

[Piazza Cavour]

Does anyone else find the recent events in Lebanon disturbing, I'm amazed and incredibly shocked by events there and more so the fact of the response by America and bush. Does Bush not learn anything by his mistakes. Anyway why is America at the forefront, surely the UN should be the face of diplomacy.

I just read the BBC news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5225358.stm

and I am amazed to hear Bush and his side kick (probably only there to take the heat of Bush, and make it seem credible) say, quote:- Mr Bush said the two countries' goal was to achieve a "lasting peace" in the region.

Mr Bush said he and Mr Blair had agreed an international force would augment the Lebanese army, and assist with the distribution of humanitarian aid.

He told reporters that the US and UK governments had agreed their top priorities in dealing with the crisis were to:

Help provide immediate humanitarian relief (what! sending Israel more Bombs?)

Achieve an end to the violence (what! not trying to pursued Israel to a cease fire?)

Return those displaced by the crisis (Send them back into the firing line!)

Help with reconstruction (give a pathetic amount to rebuild, like in Afghanistan & Iraq)

I find this amazing, only last week Bush let Israel carry on destroying hundreds of innocent lives, refusing to intervene straight away. Only last week America hurried up Shipments of Precision guided weapons, which in fact came through Britain. They only condemn Lebanon and never Israel, surely it doesn't take a genius to work out that constant bombing of a already suppressed, poor society will recruit more terrorists. But, hey maybe that is what The USA want?? Lets remember, that' s where the biggest natural oil reserves are in the middle east.

 

[dazzak]

As much as I hate to say it, the intervention of the US and the UK is necessary. The UN's rather feeble support just wouldn't be enough. The best option seems to be UN support on the ground and US and UK support in the air.

 

[Puddle]

the israeli's on the board will say that everyone in the world outside of israel is being fed anti-israel propaganda by their media. I guess the death tolls, and red cross and UN bombings didn't occur. of my friends who consider themselves jewish (practising or not), they are against the actions of israel (as any sane person would be). All my friends who consider themselves Israeli are for it...interesting a little. then there are the evangelicals who support israel because there's a reference in the bible that suggests that when all the Jews go back to their land (Israel), then the second coming of Christ will come. Kinda impossible ... but either way, Christian fundamentalists tend to be nuts.

so yes, Israel is being criticized by many, except for the US who sponsors Israel. I hope the EU and UN go after them more. though it won't stop these monstors in the Israeli government.

 

[Uncleskinny]

As much as I hate to say it, the intervention of the US and the UK is necessary. The UN's rather feeble support just wouldn't be enough. The best option seems to be UN support on the ground and US and UK support in the air.

Daz - you, in your young years, have a diplomatic career ahead. I live in a household with divided opinions - me, an old-style left winger, and my wife, a modernistic Jewish lady. We have had several *ahem* forceful discussions, and I'm sad to say we end up disagreeing most of the time. Still, we've been together 16 years and it'll take more than that to break us up. Love conquers all.

Best wishes,

Peter

 

[Theo]

the israeli's on the board will say that everyone in the world outside of israel is being fed anti-israel propaganda by their media.

And they will be right.

What's amazing is that nowhere does Piazza say anything about the parties who actually started this latest conflict with unprovoked aggression and refuse to stop - Hizballah, Hamas, Iran, and Syria. Even Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia , Jordan, and Egypt are more fair towards Israel than that guy! Surely Piazza can't expect Israel to suffer Hizballah illegally raiding Israel to murder and kidnap, and shower Israeli civilians with hundreds of rockets by Iranian-sponsored, Syrian-backed terrorists who state their objective is the liquidation of Israel, without defending itself. Oh, wait, that does seem to be what he's saying.

And what is meant by a "lasting peace" is that things can't go back to how they were the day before Hizballah started this war. That would just mean we'll have this again and again down the line.

As far as the UN, Israel honored the UN's wishes by leaving southern Lenanon 6 years ago. We see what that got them. And we see how terrorism forces occupation. The UN was supposed to keep its end of the deal up by using its peacekeepers to help get rid of the Hizballah threat on the Lebanon side of the border. Instead they sat idly by as Hizballah stockpiled weapons and entrenched themselves. Lo and behold now we have another war, a war that Israel did not want but Hizballah did, and a war that the UN let happen.

Without any evidence, Kofi Annan this week tried to accuse Israel of "deliberately" firing on UN positions. For Kofi Annan to have made his accusations without proof is absolutely irresponsible, particularly in the middle of such a volatile situation. As the week progressed we instead learned that Hizballah was deliberately using UN positions as cover, as emails from the UN observers explained. And the UN reports that Hizballah continues to use UN positions as cover today:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr012.pdf

It was also reported that Hezbollah fired from the vicinity of five UN positions at Alma Ash Shab, At Tiri, Bayt Yahoun, Brashit, and Tibnin.

The number of troops in some Ghanaian battalion positions is somewhat reduced because of the increased safety risk for the troops due to frequent incidents of Hezbollah firing from the vicinity of the positions, and shelling and bombardment close to the positions from the Israeli side.

Also not reported in the anti-Israel media are the UN's reports of Hizballah firing on them earlier this week:


http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr08.pdf

One unarmed UN military observer, a member of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), was seriously wounded by small arms fire in the patrol base in the Marun Al Ras area yesterday afternoon. According to preliminary reports, the fire originated from the Hezbollah side during an exchange with the IDF. He was evacuated by the UN to the Israeli side, from where he was taken by an IDF ambulance helicopter to a hospital in Haifa. He was operated on, and his condition is now reported as stable.

No, I didn't hear anyone thanking Israel for saving this UN observer's life after he was shot by Hizballah.

And:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/pr09.pdf

This morning, Hezbollah opened small arms fire at a UNIFIL convoy consisting of two armored personnel carriers (APC) on the road between Kunin and Bint Jubayl.

Truth is out of style.

"Soldiers evacuating a UN observer wounded by Hezbollah fire in south Lebanon. (Yaron Kaminsky)"

 

[Happiness]

What's amazing is that nowhere does Piazza say anything about the parties who actually started this latest conflict with unprovoked aggression and refuse to stop - Hizballah, Hamas, Iran, and Syria.

Hizbollah are terrorists Theo, it’s very naive of you to think that they would act like a sovereign nation that is meant to respect International Law. Therefore listing the deplorable actions of the Hizbollah terrorists (targeting UN observers etc.), is meaningless – they are TERRORISTS what do you expect?

Surely Piazza can't expect Israel to suffer Hizballah illegally raiding Israel to murder and kidnap, and shower Israeli civilians with hundreds of rockets by Iranian-sponsored, Syrian-backed terrorists who state their objective is the liquidation of Israel, without defending itself. Oh, wait, that does seem to be what he's saying.

I certainly didn't read it the same way as you did, no where did Piazza say Israel didn't have the right to defend itself - but is the response proportionate? NO! Lebanon had just rid itself of Syrian troops and influence, Israel should have helped Lebanon to destroy the influence of Hizbollah but instead has chosen to obliterate Lebanon itself.

 

[Seasick]

I have to agree with Theo here. And lets be clear, Bush had nothing to do with this war. I realize it's fashionable to blame Bush for everything, but he didn't start this nor will he be able to stop it. He's trying to help since the UN is useless. I guess Kofi is too busy spending that money he got from Saddam. By the way, my father was born and raised in Lebanon. That makes me half Lebanese and I still have family living over there. Terrorism has no boundries.

 

[Tex]

Hizbollah are terrorists Theo, it’s very naive of you to think that they would act like a sovereign nation that is meant to respect International Law. Therefore listing the deplorable actions of the Hizbollah terrorists (targeting UN observers etc.), is meaningless – they are TERRORISTS what do you expect?

The only problem with your statement is that Hezbollah is firmly entrenched in Lebanon, how do you deal with an enemy that is surrounded by a nation. Lebanon allows Hezbollah to take root and coexist within its borders. Can you separate the two?

I certainly didn't read it the same way as you did, no where did Piazza say Israel didn't have the right to defend itself - but is the response proportionate? NO! Lebanon had just rid itself of Syrian troops and influence, Israel should have helped Lebanon to destroy the influence of Hizbollah but instead has chosen to obliterate Lebanon itself.

Same question.

 

[davdavon]

the israeli's on the board will say that everyone in the world outside of israel is being fed anti-israel propaganda by their media. I guess the death tolls, and red cross and UN bombings didn't occur. of my friends who consider themselves jewish (practising or not), they are against the actions of israel (as any sane person would be). All my friends who consider themselves Israeli are for it...interesting a little. then there are the evangelicals who support israel because there's a reference in the bible that suggests that when all the Jews go back to their land (Israel), then the second coming of Christ will come. Kinda impossible ... but either way, Christian fundamentalists tend to be nuts.

so yes, Israel is being criticized by many, except for the US who sponsors Israel. I hope the EU and UN go after them more. though it won't stop these monstors in the Israeli government.

Well, I'm Israeli and I'm against the war, so... let's refrain from generalisations. However, watching Galloway's speech and the pictures from that London anti-war demonstrations didn't make me feel I'm on their side either. There's a terrible situation going on right now in Lebanon and Israel, but it seems too many people are interested in looking for someone to blame instead of finding a solution. There's no point in looking for "bad guys", both sides are guilty. Hizbullah IS a terrorist organisation, and the Israeli government is far too trigger-happy and has little regard for civilian lives. Instead of trying to find a pragmatic solution, each side is just trying to bomb the hell out of the other side, with no idea of what it's actually trying to achieve. Neither side is going to win. Hizbullah knows that Israel isn't going to collapse, and Israel knows that Hizbullah isn't going to disappear. But they just keep on going, because... well, because they're already in it, and they don't want to look like weaklings. Meanwhile, innocent people are killed on both sides. The only solution would be for both sides to calm down, put their macho egos aside, and start negotiating about a reasonable way to get out of this mess.

 

[Theo]

The only solution would be for both sides to calm down, put their macho egos aside, and start negotiating about a reasonable way to get out of this mess.

How do you negotiate with this:

"We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you." - former leader of Hizballah, Hussein Massawi.

"If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide." - leader of Hizballah, Hassan Nasrallah

"Israel must be wiped off the map." - President of Iran,
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

??​

In more encouraging news, maybe the long-heard reports that Iranian people
can't wait till their regime falls are true.

More evidence, from Time Magazine:

Parvin Heydari, an Iranian mother of two, was flipping back and forth between the nightly news and Oprah when a bulletin on an Iranian state channel caught her attention. It urged Iranians to boycott what it called "Zionist products," including those made by Pepsi, Nestlé and Calvin Klein, and warned that profits from such products "are converted into bullets piercing the chests of Lebanese and Palestinian children." As evidence, the voice-over intoned, "Pepsi stands for 'pay each penny to save Israel.'" Heydari says she changed the channel, as she has no intention of crossing Nestlé's Nesquik off her shopping list. "Lebanon has nothing to do with us," she says. "We should mind our own business and concentrate on policies that are good for our economy, and our kids."

***

It's impossible to know the precise origins of the current crisis in Lebanon, but since it erupted two weeks ago, the mood in Tehran has swung between indifference--the fighting rarely makes the headlines--and resentment over Iran's longstanding sponsorship of Hizballah. True, there have been officially sponsored rallies declaring support for Hizballah, whose leaders pledge religious allegiance to Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatullah Ali Khamenei. But the emotional support for Hizballah common throughout the Arab world is largely absent here.

Iranians like Heydari believe that their country, ethnically and linguistically Persian, should stay out of the Arabs' fight with Israel and focus on improving living standards at home. "I don't think it's right to support them when our own people are hungry," says Mohammad Reza Afshari, 23, a mechanic who works two jobs yet still cannot afford to move out or attend college. The shop where he works abuts a vast mural depicting a female suicide bomber with a baby in her arms, accompanied by the words I LOVE MOTHERHOOD, BUT I LOVE MARTYRDOM MORE. Frustration with such propaganda underpins young people's reactions to the conflict.

Sounds like lefties in the West like Hizballah more than the Iranian street does! Which goes along with that saying that many leftist radicals in the West are "more Palestinian than the Palestinians themselves."

 

[davdavon]

Hi Theo.

How do you negotiate with this:

"We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you." - former leader of Hizballah, Hussein Massawi.

"If they [the Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them world wide." - leader of Hizballah, Hassan Nasrallah

"Israel must be wiped off the map." - President of Iran,
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

First, Hizballah and Iran are different issues. Related, but different. Hizballah does get Iranian money and arms, but it would not exist without the support of the Lebanese people. What we have to deal with is why Lebanese people support Hizballah.

Hizballah was created as a direct result of Israel's occupation of Lebanon in 1982. It was founded as a real resistance movement. Since Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon, it needed new ways to prove its legitimacy, which is exactly what Israel is giving it in these very days. In the last year, it seemed that Lebanon was moving in the right direction - kicking out Syria and turning Lebanon into a free, civilized country. Now the war is changing everything. Just like in 1982, Israel is again creating the right conditions for Hizballah to prosper. I believe that, in the long run, if the people of Lebanon enjoy better material conditions, Hizballah will gradually lose local support, and eventually turn into an extremist but mostly harmless political party. They sense it too, which is why they provoked Israel to start this war, and right now the most important thing to do is to stop the war. This war will not uproot Hizballah, and the Israeli government knows this very well. It only gives the Lebanese people - including the non-Shiites - more reasons to support Hizballah.

Negotiating with Hizballah is not impossible. They offered it themselves. Yes, I'm quite sure that they're not interested in an everlasting peace, and that they will be more than happy to destroy Israel. I'm also quite sure that Israel has one of the strongest armies in the world, and that it faces absolutely no existential threat from Hizballah's guerilla forces. What we need is to create a better atmosphere and better living conditions in Lebanon, which will - eventually - cause the Lebanese people to drop their support for Hizballah. Right now, Israel is doing the exact opposite, and many lives are being lost.

 

[2-J]

Instead of trying to find a pragmatic solution, each side is just trying to bomb the hell out of the other side, with no idea of what it's actually trying to achieve. Neither side is going to win. Hizbullah knows that Israel isn't going to collapse, and Israel knows that Hizbullah isn't going to disappear. But they just keep on going, because... well, because they're already in it, and they don't want to look like weaklings. Meanwhile, innocent people are killed on both sides. The only solution would be for both sides to calm down, put their macho egos aside, and start negotiating about a reasonable way to get out of this mess.

Quoted for truth.

Israel cannot stop terrorism against itself by military incursion - FACT.

They can kill some militants, sure, but more will always rise up to take their place. Be it in a matter of days, weeks, months. But they can never stop it this way. It's not a long term solution.

Similarly, Hizbullah can't destroy Israel with its attacks.

Unless both parties sit down and enter negotiations, then simply, the cycle of violence will never end.

Look at the UK and Northern Ireland. Relative peace obtained - why? and how? By putting aside the conflicts of the past and negotiating. It was tough for both sides, there had been unjustified killing on both sides. But they did it and now things are much better there.

No matter how many militants Israel kills, it will not stop terrorist attacks into their country, that is the bottom line.

 

[Happiness]

davdavon & 2-J I agree wholeheartedly with your comments.

Theo, I've taken some of your quotes from the George G thread -

Does that mean London has no problems with Islamo-fascists.

You’ve really pissed me off now Theo. I’m not from f***ing London, I’m a northerner – apologise at once.

or that you'd prefer ignoring those problems so as to not sound "rabidly anti-Muslim"? (You don't mind sounding rabidly anti-Israel....)

In what sense have I sounded anti-Israeli? Yes I’m opposed to the actions of the Israeli government in Lebanon, that does not make me anti-Israeli. By posting the following comment:

Prophet Muhammad (piss be upon him).

You have proved that you are rabidly anti-Muslim. Why write something deliberately offensive like that? It is at best petty and it also detracts from any arguments you put forward. The ‘Islamo fascists’ are not a homogenous group (Hizbollah, Iran and Syria all have their own agendas and religious differences) but the actions of Israel (with support from the US & UK) has succeeded in uniting our enemies instead of dividing them.

I don't grasp this statement "no division between Muslim, Christian, and Jew, or East and West." Sounds feel-good but what can it mean?

The key point with Satrapi statement is that there is only a division between moderate and fanatic. It’s not a feel good statement, it’s the truth. It takes strength to be a moderate and not to become filled with hate when you feel you and your way of life is under attack. I’m not bothered about angering Muslim extremists, I’m worried about turning Muslim moderates into extremists by an inequitable policy in the Middle East, no I’m not opposed to Israel defending herself, I am opposed to the Israeli military targeting civilians, destroying the infrastructure of Lebanon etc. etc. with the ‘West’ giving the green light to do so.

 

[Pervomartovtsi]

Qana massacre, a sad day for the whole humanity...everyday I hate more Israel's goverment

 

[Aly Panic]

War, what is it good for?

It's good for business!

....

Imagine if the British had started bombing the Rupublic of Ireland after the IRA had bombed somewhere in the UK.

Isreal gets away with murder once again.

 

[Banging em' Dave]

War, what is it good for?

It's good for business!

....

Imagine if the British had started bombing the Rupublic of Ireland after the IRA had bombed somewhere in the UK.

Isreal gets away with murder once again.

We love Guinness too much

 

[Theo]

You have proved that you are rabidly anti-Muslim.

Gee, you think I don't like Islam? You worked that out on your own? There are millions of good people who are Muslims despite Islam not because of it, but Islam is not above attack.

Why write something deliberately offensive like that?

Writing "Prophet Muhammad (piss be upon him)" is beyond the pale? Why's that?

I realize Muhammad tried to place his ideas above criticism, but last I checked I live in the land of the free (peace be upon America).

I reject the idea that infidels should be killed wherever you find them with any tactic of war, so I piss on Muhammad. I reject the idea that women are to be treated as cattle, bought and sold, abused and enslaved, so I piss on Muhammad. I reject the idea that homosexuals should be murdered, so I piss on Muhammad.

And I reject that he lived a life worth admiring. Muhammad, who raped pre-pubescent children and mass-murdered, was a pervert and a tyrant.

You're welcome to disgree. I hope you won't chop my head off like Islam commands. While no mosque I know of disagreed with the fatwa on Salman Rushdie, I hope you're not so Islamic that you'll call for one on me.

I understand we're to get on our knees as submissives to Islam. It's okay for leaders in the biggest mosques of my city to spew hate against me. I must take it because they might blow something up!

An Islam that is as illiberal and anti-democratic as any belief system I've ever seen. An Islam where mosques and Muslim media are filled with hate towards everything I believe. An Islam full of leaders so lunatic you couldn't even make up a more deranged cult of sickos. Yes, the peaceniks can go on with their Chimpy McHitlerburton attacks to their hearts' content; I'm pointing at those ridiculous old men with the rotted teeth and flies buzzing about their beards, openly calling for genocides and more 9/11s, who want every Muslim child to strap a bomb on him or herself to blow up other children - it is they I regard as my enemies.

No I will not be showing any respect to Islam. If that makes me beyond the pale, oh well. If every person on earth disagrees with me, I won't be changing my mind.

You folks who would pat me on the back if I burned an American flag or posted how dearly I wished Tony Blair were assassinated, commanding me to show proper respect to Islam. That is truly rich. Very, very funny.

And, unsure how far you takre this, am I also required to give props to L. Ron Hubbard, Prophet of the Church of Scientology? At least people aren't blowing up children 'round the world in his name.....

And, oh, the wisdom: Let terrorists do whatever they want because if you fight back you'll just create more terrorists. I guess we're screwed!

The ‘Islamo fascists’ are not a homogenous group (Hizbollah, Iran and Syria all have their own agendas and religious differences) but the actions of Israel (with support from the US & UK) has succeeded in uniting our enemies instead of dividing them.

Hizballah, Iran, and Syria all want to wipe out everything I believe in. It's kind of in the Hizballah charter that they pledge allegiance to the Ayatollah, and where is it that you think Hizballah's weapons come from?

...no I’m not opposed to Israel defending herself, I am opposed to the Israeli military targeting civilians, destroying the infrastructure of Lebanon etc. etc. with the ‘West’ giving the green light to do so.

If Israel has targeted innocent civilians I would condemn it, and in the fog of war (a war Hizaballah, Syria, and Iran started) it's hard to know what's happening. What I've seen is Israel trying to avoid civilian deaths and Hizballah using civilians as human shields. It is Hizballah that is happy when civilians die, it is Hizballah that has made civilian areas war zones, it is Hizaballah that is deliberately trying to cause civilian tragedies on both sides, viewing civilians as cannon fodder for propaganda. Yes, the SoLowers certainly are willing dupes for propaganda from the worst scum on earth. What else is new on the board that was outraged someone attacked the Taliban?

The UN Undersecretary General for Humanitarian Affairs, Jan Egeland, called Hizballah "a bunch of cowards hiding behind women and children," and he "cannot understand how someone could be proud that there were more women and children hurt than armed militants." He demanded Hizballah "immediately stop mixing with the civilian population." These observations are somehow lost on the SoLow band of so-called peace-lovers.

When are we gonna see the peaceniks assign culpability where it belongs? Where are the protests against Hizballah, Iran and Syria from the pacifists who spent the last 5 years screaming at Bush rather than at Saddam, bin Laden, and Zarqawi? Are civilians deaths just so much propaganda to use against Israel and America, the countries SoLowers rabidly despise like the lock-step conformists they are? I won't even ask the SoLowers to condemn the genocide Muslims are committing in, say, Sudan, as we know that doesn't much interest them. Civilians only matter if their deaths can be spun as America's or Israel's fault. Yes, the 200 civilians blown up on Bombay trains sure were forgotten in record time. Islam is wonderful. A religion of peace. Death to the USA.

 

[Happiness]

I think we are just going over old ground again here but here goes:

I don't agree with Israel's response to the attacks by Hizbollah - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

Seeing people getting killed bothers me (irrespective of religion) - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

I expect a democratically elected government to act within international law, I do not expect the same of terrorists because they are terrorists - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

I was surprised by your bigoted comments re Islam as you, quite rightly, deplore bigotry in others e.g. Mel Gibson - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

I love Morrissey with or without glasses - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

I do not think Morrissey has jumped the shark - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

I am off to finish my bottle of wine - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

 

[no one in particular]

I love Morrissey with or without glasses - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

I do not think Morrissey has jumped the shark - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

I am off to finish my bottle of wine - this does not make me pro-Islam or a Muslim.

thank god i didn't waste my time clicking on the newest post to this thread...

 

[Happiness]

thank god i didn't waste my time clicking on the newest post to this thread...

I'm sure you'll sleep easier in your bed armed with this knowledge.